"That was real."
Aug. 25th, 2010 03:49 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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penny_lane_42 made a post which prompted a discussion about Spuffy (shocker, I know!) and, less obviously, a comparison to Cordy/Angel. I started to comment, but it turned into a book, so here it is in a new post. I've actually talked about Cordy/Angel before, and while I think I like them more as a romantic pairing than I did then, my feelings about the execution fail in their relationship arc remain the same.That said, I definitely see parallels between S/B and C/A, in a way that makes me like C/A a lot more precisely because of my Spuffy love. It can be hard to see the similarities because the two couples started at opposite ends of the spectrum and worked their way to the middle - Cordy and Angel started as friends who grew to love each other, whereas Buffy and Spike started as lovers who built a friendship out of the rubble of their destructive affair. But both were a slow build, and at the climax of their relationships (for B/S it's late S7, for C/A it's "You're Welcome"), both couples managed to develop a relationship that encompassed friendship, desire, trust, and love.
I think it helps to start by looking at the characters individually - a lot of people like to compare Angel and Spike because of the whole "vampire with a soul" thing, but superficial comparisons aside, they're not all that alike. In contrast, Angel and Buffy are actually very similar, and Cordy and Spike play corresponding roles in their lives.
Angel and Buffy are both the alphas in the relationship. (This is, in fact, one of the reasons I don't think they could ever work long term as a couple. They're too similar.) They are the heroes, the leaders of their respective teams, the ones who make the big decisions that affect people's lives. There's a lot of responsibility in that, and it can get heavy. Both of them struggle with the pain, the stress, and the isolation that comes with being the Chosen One. They need someone they can trust, someone who understands them in a way that no one else does, someone who will support them and keep them from detaching themselves too much, but also call them out when they're wrong.
Enter Cordelia and Spike. They are the foundation upon which our heroes build. Angel can't function without Cordy - he needs her to keep him sane, to keep him connected to the living, to keep him on the right path. She is his connection to the Powers and his guiding light. Likewise, Buffy depends on Spike - he is her best fighter when she needs back-up, her escape when the world is too much, her strength when she feels like giving up. He is the one she can count on when no one else is there.
Cordy and Spike help Angel and Buffy be heroes. They lift them up, and they love them in a way that doesn't ask for anything in return. Cordy and Spike make them better people. And I think the reverse is true as well - certainly for Spike, whose desire to become the kind of man Buffy would love drove him to do good, to get a soul, and save the world, but also for Cordelia, who became a much more compassionate and mature person with Angel. Cordy and Spike become heroes in their own right, but they never want or need to shine brighter than their respective partners. The mission is what matters, and Cordy and Spike have both dedicated themselves wholeheartedly to someone else's.
S/B is certainly not a pretty ship, so I can see why C/A fans might be dubious at the comparison. It's messy and complicated and occasionally dysfunctional, but it's very real. That's what separates it from the idealized romance of Buffy and Angel. It's not about destiny or star-crossed love; it's just two people trying to muddle through the best they can, and sometimes they get it right and sometimes they get it wrong. And that's a quality I see in C/A - they too are real, they never idealized each other, they never allowed each other anything but the unvarnished truth. (As I said in my previous essay, I think the writers went off the rails trying to make them more epic than they needed to be, so I think it works better in theory than in execution, but that foundation was definitely there, and it could've been so much better than what happened.) They've seen the best and the worst of each other, they understand each other with perfect clarity, and they know... you're the one.
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 07:58 pm (UTC)Is it okay if I link this, sweetie?
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 07:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:00 pm (UTC)MY FACE IS A GIANT EXCLAMATION POINT.
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:04 pm (UTC)Btw, Cordy and Angel started as friends who grew to love each other ..
I agree, but (speaking for myself) I have to change it to "Cordy and Angel started as friends who could have grown to love each other." because I didn't like how they (the writers) went about it on the show.
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:04 pm (UTC)Of coure, I think the execution fails for C/A, but I love the potential so much and "YOU'RE WELCOME"!!!! So much love for that episode.
In contrast, Angel and Buffy are actually very similar, and Cordy and Spike play corresponding roles in their lives.
EXACTLY. And your reasons are great! Also, Spike and Cordy are both truth-tellers--they often tell Buffy and Angel what no one else will because they don't put up with b.s. I love them for similar reasons.
Fantastic little post!
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:12 pm (UTC)i am vaguely considering doing a picpsam of angel cordelia faces. because faaaaaaaaaces. i have so many gifs entitled "ats_caEPISODENAMEfaaaaces". such as
which is pretty much my favorite cangel moment because it's the moment i started shipping them (well, many years after the original fact), and it is the episode when the show makes a determined step toward that direction, and it is probably the largest step the show takes, in my opinion, in its whole run toward c/a, with the exception of to shanshu in la which is otp time for forever. faaaaaces. i have a gif from that episode entitled ats_cashanshufaaaaces.gif. things i love. them. faces.
... this comment is just absurd, i am so sorry. this ship does funny things to me.
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:14 pm (UTC)Which is actually another similarity to Spuffy. They both loved each other but they danced around their feelings, and in the end, they fail because of miscommunication - Buffy doesn't tell him until too late, and he doesn't believe her. And then he dies. Angel and Cordy had a similar "missed our moment" in "Tomorrow" - they'd spent months dancing around their feelings, and they miss their big meeting. And then Cordy becomes a higher power. But then they get the coda of "You're Welcome," which is lovely.
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:15 pm (UTC)TELL ME WHY, LAUREN, TELL ME WHY. BRB SHAKING AND CRYING OVER HERE. MY HEART CAN'T TAKE IT LET ME CONVINCE YOU LET ME CONVINCE YOU.
one day i will write this cangel meta and everyone will understand and world peace will be upon us.
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:15 pm (UTC)I've made this SAME comparison before too. The Angel is Buffy, Cordy is Spike one. They just have so many similarities that you went into to so so perfectly. I mean, I'm a C/Aer that makes the comparison too and I know quite a few others who do too. Quite a number of C/A centered fics have Spuffy as the secondary pairing. It's just which one do you ship MORE sort of thing.
I also think you'll find a lot of C/Aers don't particularly agree with the execution of the ship either (especially Tomorrow and after). That is why we have fic. And discussions. If anyone was to look at old Stranger Things discussions (hell, even new ones), C/Aers aren't like OMG!!11 JOSS IS A GENIUS!!11. Most of them hardly agree with what the writers did, especially trying to make them into some epic star crossed romance, which is not something they ever were. I don't want to speak for all C/Aers but most of it is about loving the potential rather than the straight canon we got. Like I can't even tell you how many fics are fix-it fics. Is it that same way on the Spuffy side of things?
As
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:20 pm (UTC)a lot of c/a-ers have a lot of trouble with it from cordy's perspective because it makes her look like she can be bought or something
I never saw it that way. Cordy did a LOT of growing up in LA. But there was always that part of her that was a little materialistic, which I loved. It kept her character real in a way that perhaps Buffy wasn't. *shrugs* I dunno.... Besides, Angel so owed her. He did give away her clothes, after all.
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:21 pm (UTC)True. Although I think Spike is much better at that before he falls in love with Buffy. He does it some in S6, but the truth often gets mixed up in what he wants from Buffy, and it's harder for him to see straight. And he hardly ever questions her in S7, probably because he doesn't trust himself.
But I can totally see him getting back in that role if he and Buffy met up post-"Chosen" when he's more adjusted to the soul.
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:23 pm (UTC)That is so true.
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:25 pm (UTC)I can't speak for Lauren, but what I find problematic is that the writers threw up too many artificial roadblocks to keep them apart - trying to manufacture UST when they didn't need to. If they'd developed the relationship by letting the conflicts come from the characters rather than external factors, they'd have had just as much to work with, but it would've felt more organic to me.
The post I linked to at the beginning of this one says it using a lot more words, lol.
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:31 pm (UTC)Like I can't even tell you how many fics are fix-it fics. Is it that same way on the Spuffy side of things?
OMG YOU HAVE NO IDEA. There is a TON of fix-it fics on the Spuffy side. Most of them deal with Buffy either developing a relationship with Spike in S5 (avoiding the S6 mess) or making their relationship in S6 much more functional and happier. There's a whole slew of S6 fics where Buffy apologizes and/or gets told off for her behavior, and she decides to be nicer to Spike, but a lot of those veer into Buffy-bashing. :(
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:38 pm (UTC)I am reading your other thoughts on C/A and the comments and I have to say, you might be surprised how many C/Aers agree with you. There are a few (and I hope they don't mind speaking for them), myself included, that were SO SO sick and tired of the artifical obstacles. It was like so many television writers are afraid of the Moonlighting curse, they can't put any leads together and let them be happy, to have conflicts come externally instead of internally. I've actually discussed this places before. C/A didn't have any organic internal type conflicts outside of Angel's soul. And to be honest, with how not sexually active Cordelia was, I don't think it would have been an issue for them to forgo sex. And knowing how tenacious Cordy was, she would have found a cure/loophole. I would have much rather seen them as a couple, fighting side by side ala Spuffy than all this angsty redux crap.
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:43 pm (UTC)first of all, i will say that there's a lot of misinterpretation of kyrumption as Destiny, which it's not. it's two champions meeting in a battlefield recognizing a mutual fate, which they do have: the mission. no one said the fate was each other. it's not. clearly. second, there's this perception in fandom that the entire kyrumption conversation took place because someone needed to TELL angel he loved cordelia, which is silly, because he already loved cordelia and he knew it. between to shanshu in la and the events of the back portion of s2, i'm pretty sure he was drowning in it. BUT, as i imagine is buffy's problem sometimes, it was so different than his relationship with buffy, i honestly don't think he recognized it for what it was until someone told him because angel is an idiot. but that doesn't mean those feelings were falsely manufactured. they've been in motion since day one, and propelled forward, in particular, by To Shanshu in LA (Cordy, I'm going to get you back. I need you back.), everything from Epiphany on in s2 (I just got her back), and Buffy's death (The problem is that I'm okay. I can deal with it.). it's just that it's so different, and this is a man who has been in love ONCE in 250 years. ONCE. so he thinks that's the way it is always supposed to go. and then when he realizes not only that he's in love with her, but that she has spent at this point four years reminding herself over and over again that he's a eunuch in love with Buffy, he tries to get rid of it. Emotional idiot. He can't, because he loves her (I'm more afraid of her dying than she is. What is that?), but that does lead us to Kyrumption conversation number two, which I love because yes:
THIS IS HIS PROBLEM. He knows he couldn't love Buffy, he knows he loves Cordelia, he knows that he doesn't have anything to offer her because she's Cordelia and her worth is staggering to him. He doesn't think she would look at him twice. Idiots. Both of them. And the fact that Lorne makes that jibe about Buffy - it guts Angel. He looks like Lorne punched him, and it's not in the "oh, I'm betraying Buffy way" (this comes later, see: could write an essay on Awakening), it's the "we've been here before in some ways, but to compare the two is to compare two incomparable things."
SO IN SUM KYRUMPTION THAT WORD I DO NOT THINK IT MEANS WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS I'M SORRY I HAVE SO MANY FEELINGS?
part two oh jfc
Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:43 pm (UTC)As for the lack of fluffy times, I totally agree - and blame s4 for this entirely, because s3 is actually full of fluffy times, as much as emotional idiots can have fluffy times, but the thing about s4 is that A: joss is an idiot and B: it actually does an absurd amount of reinforcement of the gravity of this relationship. cordy's not in her body, and so that robs us of her and i hate that i hate that, but at the same time, and i was saying this in a comment above, i think certain aspects of her linger for the first few episodes of the season, and, to be quite honest, you're welcome as an episode takes care of all of cordelia's side of this business as far as i'm concerned. i want to see her there and in love with him and entrenched in it in s4, but i get so much of him being in love with her (see: AWAKENING AWAKENING AWAKENING and also INSIDE OUT INSIDE OUT INSIDE OUT OH MY HEART NEARLY DIED AT THAT EPISODE LAUREN I CAN'T EVEN TAKE IT JUST THINKING ABOUT IT BRB SHAKING AND CRYING. and also since i come at this from an angel perspective while everyone else is coming at it from a cordelia perspective, it is quite clear. this is why i can't understand people who are angel (character) fans who aren't c/a. what show are you watching? i understand cordelia, because cordelia loves him but it's complicated and she has her own buffy complex at play here, but if you love angel - which, granted, about five people do - i don't understand how you could not ship cangel, let alone how you could ship bangel. cordelia made him as a character and to ignore that and to shuffle it into a best friend box is to completely miss the entire root of his characterization by series end) - and, as i was saying above as well, i think even when jasmine is parading around in her skin the occasional bursts of OTP time we get from jasmine are rooted in the bits of cordelia that are still floating around inside, until jasmine squelches even this out - that i don't particularly mind their arc in s4 so much as hers. but we know who to blame for that.
would i prefer an alterna!s4 where she isn't evil and they can have otp times and be the best otp this verse has ever seen? of course. well, i happen to think, in terms of narrative construction and arc importance, they are the best otp this verse has ever seen and the only ship i'd really allow to be on the same level in terms of structure could be spuffy, but i don't ship it (YET?!), so there you go. either way, my POINT IS
1. i cannot shut up about these kids what even is this comment doing i am so sorry look at the mess i've made with all of these feelings.
2. otp.
3. i love you.
4. you are stunning. :)
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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:44 pm (UTC)