next_to_normal: (coy Cordy)
[personal profile] next_to_normal
[livejournal.com profile] penny_lane_42 made a post which prompted a discussion about Spuffy (shocker, I know!) and, less obviously, a comparison to Cordy/Angel. I started to comment, but it turned into a book, so here it is in a new post. I've actually talked about Cordy/Angel before, and while I think I like them more as a romantic pairing than I did then, my feelings about the execution fail in their relationship arc remain the same.

That said, I definitely see parallels between S/B and C/A, in a way that makes me like C/A a lot more precisely because of my Spuffy love. It can be hard to see the similarities because the two couples started at opposite ends of the spectrum and worked their way to the middle - Cordy and Angel started as friends who grew to love each other, whereas Buffy and Spike started as lovers who built a friendship out of the rubble of their destructive affair. But both were a slow build, and at the climax of their relationships (for B/S it's late S7, for C/A it's "You're Welcome"), both couples managed to develop a relationship that encompassed friendship, desire, trust, and love.

I think it helps to start by looking at the characters individually - a lot of people like to compare Angel and Spike because of the whole "vampire with a soul" thing, but superficial comparisons aside, they're not all that alike. In contrast, Angel and Buffy are actually very similar, and Cordy and Spike play corresponding roles in their lives.

Angel and Buffy are both the alphas in the relationship. (This is, in fact, one of the reasons I don't think they could ever work long term as a couple. They're too similar.) They are the heroes, the leaders of their respective teams, the ones who make the big decisions that affect people's lives. There's a lot of responsibility in that, and it can get heavy. Both of them struggle with the pain, the stress, and the isolation that comes with being the Chosen One. They need someone they can trust, someone who understands them in a way that no one else does, someone who will support them and keep them from detaching themselves too much, but also call them out when they're wrong.

Enter Cordelia and Spike. They are the foundation upon which our heroes build. Angel can't function without Cordy - he needs her to keep him sane, to keep him connected to the living, to keep him on the right path. She is his connection to the Powers and his guiding light. Likewise, Buffy depends on Spike - he is her best fighter when she needs back-up, her escape when the world is too much, her strength when she feels like giving up. He is the one she can count on when no one else is there.

Cordy and Spike help Angel and Buffy be heroes. They lift them up, and they love them in a way that doesn't ask for anything in return. Cordy and Spike make them better people. And I think the reverse is true as well - certainly for Spike, whose desire to become the kind of man Buffy would love drove him to do good, to get a soul, and save the world, but also for Cordelia, who became a much more compassionate and mature person with Angel. Cordy and Spike become heroes in their own right, but they never want or need to shine brighter than their respective partners. The mission is what matters, and Cordy and Spike have both dedicated themselves wholeheartedly to someone else's.

S/B is certainly not a pretty ship, so I can see why C/A fans might be dubious at the comparison. It's messy and complicated and occasionally dysfunctional, but it's very real. That's what separates it from the idealized romance of Buffy and Angel. It's not about destiny or star-crossed love; it's just two people trying to muddle through the best they can, and sometimes they get it right and sometimes they get it wrong. And that's a quality I see in C/A - they too are real, they never idealized each other, they never allowed each other anything but the unvarnished truth. (As I said in my previous essay, I think the writers went off the rails trying to make them more epic than they needed to be, so I think it works better in theory than in execution, but that foundation was definitely there, and it could've been so much better than what happened.) They've seen the best and the worst of each other, they understand each other with perfect clarity, and they know... you're the one.

Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 07:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] menomegirl.livejournal.com
Oooh, more discussion!

Is it okay if I link this, sweetie?

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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com
Image

MY FACE IS A GIANT EXCLAMATION POINT.

Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] menomegirl.livejournal.com
That is my favorite Angel/Cordy moment.

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Date: Aug. 27th, 2010 08:27 pm (UTC)
lokifan: Spike & Buffy on the veranda, text "you make me want to be a better man" (Spike/Buffy: you make me want to be a be)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
AWWW *squishes them*

I love this meta because it's so true. I think Cordy devotes herself to the mission where Spike devotes himself to Buffy, but I totally see them as sister ships and the paralells are totally there :)

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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com
I love this!

Of coure, I think the execution fails for C/A, but I love the potential so much and "YOU'RE WELCOME"!!!! So much love for that episode.

In contrast, Angel and Buffy are actually very similar, and Cordy and Spike play corresponding roles in their lives.

EXACTLY. And your reasons are great! Also, Spike and Cordy are both truth-tellers--they often tell Buffy and Angel what no one else will because they don't put up with b.s. I love them for similar reasons.

Fantastic little post!

Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com
i get so distressed when people dislike the execution of c/a. s4 did fucked up things with cordy's character, but the ship itself was only reinforced, imo. and everything about them is just so - it's such a giant puzzle, finally completed. everything fits together perfectly.

TELL ME WHY, LAUREN, TELL ME WHY. BRB SHAKING AND CRYING OVER HERE. MY HEART CAN'T TAKE IT LET ME CONVINCE YOU LET ME CONVINCE YOU.

one day i will write this cangel meta and everyone will understand and world peace will be upon us.

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part two oh jfc

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Re: part two oh jfc

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Re: part two oh jfc

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Re: part two oh jfc

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Re: part two oh jfc

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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] menomegirl.livejournal.com
Spike and Cordy are both truth-tellers--they often tell Buffy and Angel what no one else will because they don't put up with b.s.

That is so true.

Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xlivvielockex.livejournal.com
YES! YES! A THOUSANDS TIMES YES!

I've made this SAME comparison before too. The Angel is Buffy, Cordy is Spike one. They just have so many similarities that you went into to so so perfectly. I mean, I'm a C/Aer that makes the comparison too and I know quite a few others who do too. Quite a number of C/A centered fics have Spuffy as the secondary pairing. It's just which one do you ship MORE sort of thing.

I also think you'll find a lot of C/Aers don't particularly agree with the execution of the ship either (especially Tomorrow and after). That is why we have fic. And discussions. If anyone was to look at old Stranger Things discussions (hell, even new ones), C/Aers aren't like OMG!!11 JOSS IS A GENIUS!!11. Most of them hardly agree with what the writers did, especially trying to make them into some epic star crossed romance, which is not something they ever were. I don't want to speak for all C/Aers but most of it is about loving the potential rather than the straight canon we got. Like I can't even tell you how many fics are fix-it fics. Is it that same way on the Spuffy side of things?

As [livejournal.com profile] eilowyn said in my LJ, we are sister ships. :)
Edited Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:18 pm (UTC)

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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 09:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com
hahahaha fancy meeting you here.

i'm getting this post all messy with my feelings, kelly. make me stop. you know how i get.

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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 09:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com
also i think if any c/a-ers actually are still in the joss is a genius boat we should kick them out of fandom and take their toys away.

Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
YES. I love it when you get all insightful. And I'm right there with you in how Buffy and Angel are so similar, likewise Cordy and Spike in their respective roles.

Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 08:42 pm (UTC)
shapinglight: (Angel & Cordy)
From: [personal profile] shapinglight
Yep, definitely. The thing about both couples is how they complement each other. Have always thought so.

Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 11:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] agnes-bean.livejournal.com
I agree with this so much. Like, all of it.

It's not about destiny or star-crossed love; it's just two people trying to muddle through the best they can, and sometimes they get it right and sometimes they get it wrong.

Yes! Although Spuffy means more to me emotionally (perhaps because I like the execution like, 1000x more, perhaps because I'm just more into Buffy), I really enjoy C/A too, and this is totally what draws me to both ships. It's about people coming together because of who they are, not because they are destined to, or whatever. It's about people loving each other for who they are, not what they represent.

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Date: Aug. 25th, 2010 11:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pocochina.livejournal.com
I hadn't thought to draw those parallels between the two relationships, but you're totally right.

It's interesting, the way the differences in character made the two relationships go in such different directions. Spike helps Buffy to be a hero in S6 because he's where Buffy works out her relationship with her own darkness - he helps Buffy to be a better person because, at this point, he's not good, even if he's done good things. And because this required actual meeting and talking and doing, we saw an actual relationship dynamic. Spuffy was all about balance, within and between the parties, and I like that internal character work. There's a lot of the balance stuff at play with C/A, but it's purely between each other (dark and light; doubting and trusting; joyful and broody). Maybe that's why the writers felt like they had to throw up such pointless (and I agree with you, very poorly conceived and executed) roadblocks - it's lacking those internal layers of tension Spuffy has.

Date: Aug. 26th, 2010 01:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seapealsh.livejournal.com
I loved Cordy/Angel. Your comparison of the two ships made perfect sense. Excellent.

Date: Aug. 26th, 2010 02:52 pm (UTC)
silverusagi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverusagi
*sigh* Cordy and Angel, the could have been great...

Lots of good discussion!

Date: Aug. 27th, 2010 04:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] misskittydu34.livejournal.com
I totally love your essay ! That's exactly how I see them... ♥ Fantastic post :)

Do you allow me to translate your text in French for sharing this point of view with other fans who don't speak English ? (All the credit will be yours of course). I love the way you developp your essay :)

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