next_to_normal: Cordy praying, Willow watching; text: ask for some aspirin (Ask for some aspirin)
[personal profile] next_to_normal
As an illustration of why you shouldn't ask professional writers to read your stuff, this is really only halfway relevant to fanfic, but there are just so many bits that I want to quote and say "Word!" Plus, it's just an interesting post: "I Will Not Read Your F**king Script." Relevant excerpts under the cut.

It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't.
This I have found to be very true.

And the truth is, saying something positive about this thing would be the nastiest, meanest and most dishonest thing I could do.
I cringe every time I see truly awful fics get great reviews, for just this reason - it's completely misleading. Oh, maybe the person leaving the review honestly thinks it's great, but they're probably no more knowledgeable about writing than the author. It makes authors think they're better than they are, and makes them even more resistant to well-deserved criticism. And it just perpetuates the cycle of crap, because bad writers encourage each other to write more bad fic, instead of it being pointed out to them (gently) that they suck and are in painful need of a writing class. Of course, when you try to give them honest advice...

He was frustrated by the responses he'd gotten from friends, because he felt they were going easy on him, and he wanted real criticism. They never do, of course. What they want is a few tough notes to give the illusion of honesty, and then some pats on the head. What they want--always--is encouragement, even when they shouldn't get any.
And that right there is why constructive criticism is poorly received 90% of the time. It's also probably why my betaing style pisses off so many new writers. ;)

The main point I made was that he'd fallen prey to a fallacy that nails a lot of first timers. He was way more interested in telling his one story than in being a writer. It was like buying all the parts to a car and starting to build it before learning the basics of auto mechanics. You'll learn a lot along the way, I said, but you'll never have a car that runs.
If this doesn't describe at least half the beginning writers in fandom, I don't know what does.

Date: Sep. 11th, 2009 09:06 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
What a cool post.


(I have a couple of RL friends who have handed me stories and asked me to look over them. I responded with "Alright, but be warned - I'm going to be harsh, I'm going to be honest, and there's a fair chance I'll tell you it's total crap. Do you still want me to read it?" One did, one didn't.)


What is your betaing style, anyway?

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 04:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] clawofcat.livejournal.com
You're never mean :) But I guess it's different when we work together vs. you and the newbie writers because we've a) been doing it for a long time, b) both of us like a hard beta, c) really familiar with each other's styles, strengths and weaknesses, and d) discuss what we specifically would like the other to focus on.

Something that contributes to good betaing is if the betee is a self-aware writer. When they can pinpoint areas of weakness and verbalize where they need support, then it becomes a more active collaborative process than a passive "give me feedback and maybe I'll do something about it" process. I've always found that an active dialogue between an editor and writer produces stronger work. I found this especially true on the newspaper. When changes were made without my input or my knowledge, christ, it fucked everything up!

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 05:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] clawofcat.livejournal.com
What is your betaing style, anyway?
Comprehensive would definately describe E's style. I can't speak to her beta approach with new writers, but whenever we've worked together I've always relied on her for correcting mechanical errors, as well as offering her opinion about pacing, characterization, plot, etc. I regularly beta'd for her, as well, when we were both writing frequently, and something that worked well was liberally using the comment boxes in the margins of Word. You might want to check out this post she put up awhile back called Beta Thoughts (http://eowyn-315.livejournal.com/57005.html). I think our editing relationship worked because it was an open dialogue. The more you discuss, the more familiar you become with your writer's style and/or needs and it makes you a better beta, as a result.

Date: Sep. 11th, 2009 09:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com
He was way more interested in telling his one story than in being a writer.

YES! I've found that to be true so often. Where people just want to know enough to write one story without actually learning the art of writing. And it's frustrating because learning how to write must come first.

It's important if you want to tell one particular story to wait. Write some other stories first. Get some practice. Learn the ins and outs. Hone your skills. Then see about doing that One Story you want to write. Because if you just try to write that One Story without that valuable background of experience, it's gonna suck.

Date: Sep. 11th, 2009 10:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
Haha yes! There's actually an original story I've had planned in the back of my head for a long time (a fantasy/sci fi), but while I could write notes out for it and snippets of dialogue, I've never felt ready to write it. I partially view fanfic as writing practice. I still love it, but someday I'd like to feel I have the knowledge and ability to write my own story, my own characters.

Date: Sep. 11th, 2009 11:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com
Yep. I was thinking of trying my hand at screenwriting for a while because I have an idea for a movie that I just adore. However, when learning the ropes, I started out writing something completely different so as to work out the kinks in my technique before trying for my actual goal there. That's just common sense.

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 04:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] urania-calliope.livejournal.com
I totally feel this way too.

Date: Sep. 11th, 2009 11:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com
lol! The most common problem I see with new writers is that they tend to summarize what happens instead of telling the story. Like...

"Buffy and Spike meet up in the old crypt, and Spike is mad at her because she's a bitch. Buffy had been drinking earlier so she's real drunk and they get into a big fight.

*bad dialogue bad dialogue*

Then they start having sex.

Meanwhile Dawn's getting home and she sees Clem eating Cheetos and she gets mad because she wants Cheetos, too, but the bag is almost empty so they decide to go to the store..."

Ouch. That hurt to write.

Anyway, dude, that's an outline, not a story! In actual publishing, I've had submissions that strongly resemble this. It makes my head hurt.

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 04:12 am (UTC)
silverusagi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverusagi
"Buffy and Spike meet up in the old crypt, and Spike is mad at her because she's a bitch. Buffy had been drinking earlier so she's real drunk and they get into a big fight.

*bad dialogue bad dialogue*

Then they start having sex.


Best story EVAR! Because who cares about all that plot and stuff, just get to them having sex. :)

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 01:24 pm (UTC)
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)
From: [identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com
*bad dialogue bad dialogue*

You're secretly turning British, aren't you?

Or possibly Canadian.

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 04:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] clawofcat.livejournal.com
Me, too! Is there an alternate way to spell dialogue?

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 10:12 pm (UTC)
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)
From: [identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com
'Dialog'. It's how Microsoft spells the word, so I assumed it was the standard American spelling.

How do you spell 'catalogue', then?

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 10:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] clawofcat.livejournal.com
Hm, I've never seen "dialog" used, but I suppose someone out there does.

I actually spell catalogue/catalog both ways, which is odd, but it happens. I have to use the word a fair amount for work, so when I'm hand writing a note I'll put "catalog," but if I'm writing something more formal I'll add the -ue. Peculiar? You bet!

I stick firm by theater, though. Theatre just looks funny.

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 04:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com
Cheerio, old chap! What a load of tosh! Blimey! Blimey! Blimey!

I mean, what? I didn't realize "dialogue" wasn't an American spelling.

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 10:14 pm (UTC)
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)
From: [identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com
Wiktionary calls it a US and computing simplified spelling variant of dialogue. So maybe not all Americans are simplified after all? :-)

Date: Sep. 11th, 2009 10:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
This is another favorite part of mine:

Because here's the thing: not only is it cruel to encourage the hopeless, but you cannot discourage a writer. If someone can talk you out of being a writer, you're not a writer. If I can talk you out of being a writer, I've done you a favor, because now you'll be free to pursue your real talent, whatever that may be.


I think there's a learning curve with writing. You don't just start and suddenly you're awesome. And there's also a learning curve with understanding the process of writing. And this means understanding concrit and using it to your advantage. My first concrit from another writer was hard to take at first. But that honesty is important. Saying that, my experience with "evil reviewer" a few days ago - I think it was [livejournal.com profile] enigmaticblues who said she hoped that it didn't discourage me from writing. Oddly enough, while I was a bit stalled on working on TYSK (this problem existed before the reviewer "attacked"), I went on to write a Spuffy birthday fic and a short oneshot that night.

For me, the more I write the more I realize the more I need to learn.

Date: Sep. 11th, 2009 10:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slaymesoftly.livejournal.com
What you/he said!

Date: Sep. 11th, 2009 11:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladyofthelog.livejournal.com
That was a great article. Thanks for linking!


My problem has always been in finding betas willing to savage my stuff! My favorite critique I've ever gotten has to have been from my boyfriend, who circled one paragraph and wrote, "Did you get this dialogue from a villager in a bad RPG?"

As a beta in turn, I hope to be as honest, if not necessarily as pithy.

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 12:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladyofthelog.livejournal.com
Finally, I just went to a group of about 10 people - I figure if they each point out a couple things to fix, it'll end up well-savaged. :)

This is my current strategy!

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 12:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com
[livejournal.com profile] ladyofthelog is an excellent beta. *nods*

/endorsement and affirmation

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 12:53 am (UTC)

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 04:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] urania-calliope.livejournal.com
I love getting stomped on in reviews because I firmly believe I suck at writing and I really do want to be at least halfway decent.

Great link!

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 04:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] urania-calliope.livejournal.com
No unfortunately. :(

I did recently get myself a beta for a longish fanfiction I'm working on that really let me have it! Awesome!

Good betas aren't mean they're honest, sometimes pride stops us from seeing that I think.

I would love to have more betas go at my stuff but 99% of time that I've managed to get myself one the feedback I've gotten has generally been: "Oooh, that was great!" Which is nice, who doesn't love a confidence booster? But I know there must have been at least one or two things in there I could've changed for the better.

Date: Sep. 12th, 2009 08:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shinybaum.livejournal.com
I will not fix your motherfucking database, set up your motherfucking library for a 'good cause' or research something you can find on motherfucking google.

That felt GOOD.

Date: Sep. 13th, 2009 04:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] caromiofic.livejournal.com
Funny, that article was just quoted on a lit agent's blog today.
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