Stuff I found on the interwebz

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As an illustration of why you shouldn't ask professional writers to read your stuff, this is really only halfway relevant to fanfic, but there are just so many bits that I want to quote and say "Word!" Plus, it's just an interesting post: "I Will Not Read Your F**king Script." Relevant excerpts under the cut.

It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't.

This I have found to be very true.

And the truth is, saying something positive about this thing would be the nastiest, meanest and most dishonest thing I could do.

I cringe every time I see truly awful fics get great reviews, for just this reason - it's completely misleading. Oh, maybe the person leaving the review honestly thinks it's great, but they're probably no more knowledgeable about writing than the author. It makes authors think they're better than they are, and makes them even more resistant to well-deserved criticism. And it just perpetuates the cycle of crap, because bad writers encourage each other to write more bad fic, instead of it being pointed out to them (gently) that they suck and are in painful need of a writing class. Of course, when you try to give them honest advice...

He was frustrated by the responses he'd gotten from friends, because he felt they were going easy on him, and he wanted real criticism. They never do, of course. What they want is a few tough notes to give the illusion of honesty, and then some pats on the head. What they want--always--is encouragement, even when they shouldn't get any.

And that right there is why constructive criticism is poorly received 90% of the time. It's also probably why my betaing style pisses off so many new writers. ;)

The main point I made was that he'd fallen prey to a fallacy that nails a lot of first timers. He was way more interested in telling his one story than in being a writer. It was like buying all the parts to a car and starting to build it before learning the basics of auto mechanics. You'll learn a lot along the way, I said, but you'll never have a car that runs.

If this doesn't describe at least half the beginning writers in fandom, I don't know what does.

Comments

[deird1]

What a cool post.


(I have a couple of RL friends who have handed me stories and asked me to look over them. I responded with "Alright, but be warned - I'm going to be harsh, I'm going to be honest, and there's a fair chance I'll tell you it's total crap. Do you still want me to read it?" One did, one didn't.)


What is your betaing style, anyway?

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My betaing style has many things in common with Maggie Walsh's style of teaching, lol. I'm hard on writers and expect a lot, but if they're willing to work at it, we'll get along fine. If they're not, they'll probably be calling me the Evil Bitch Monster of Death. :)

I'm generally very comprehensive and totally honest. I've had people who really only wanted a proofreader for mechanical errors, and I've tried to respect that, but I find it really, really hard to ignore big, glaring plot holes or bad characterization or whatever. So usually I end up commenting on anything and everything, and I'll specify whether something's wrong and should be corrected, or if it's just my opinion of how something could be better.

With new writers, that sometimes means being painfully honest about how bad it is, but I always feel that a reality check is the best thing for them. If they're serious about writing, then they'll be eager to improve and willing to learn. If they think their writing is perfectly fine as is and just wanted a pat on the head, then I have nothing to offer them and we're just wasting each other's time.

I don't think I'm mean, though. :) I give encouragement where it's due - with someone like clawofcat, whom I used to beta for regularly, I'd generally give out as many compliments as criticisms. That's why I really prefer to work with more experienced writers, because it's way more fun to read something I can enjoy while I beta, rather than it being a chore.

[clawofcat.livejournal.com]

You're never mean :) But I guess it's different when we work together vs. you and the newbie writers because we've a) been doing it for a long time, b) both of us like a hard beta, c) really familiar with each other's styles, strengths and weaknesses, and d) discuss what we specifically would like the other to focus on.

Something that contributes to good betaing is if the betee is a self-aware writer. When they can pinpoint areas of weakness and verbalize where they need support, then it becomes a more active collaborative process than a passive "give me feedback and maybe I'll do something about it" process. I've always found that an active dialogue between an editor and writer produces stronger work. I found this especially true on the newspaper. When changes were made without my input or my knowledge, christ, it fucked everything up!

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Something that contributes to good betaing is if the betee is a self-aware writer.

Very, very, very true. I think that's a big part of the problem I have with new writers, is that they're rarely self-aware. Not only can they not identify areas of weakness, but they don't even want to acknowledge that they have them when someone else points it out.

And good to know I'm not mean! :)

[clawofcat.livejournal.com]

What is your betaing style, anyway?
Comprehensive would definately describe E's style. I can't speak to her beta approach with new writers, but whenever we've worked together I've always relied on her for correcting mechanical errors, as well as offering her opinion about pacing, characterization, plot, etc. I regularly beta'd for her, as well, when we were both writing frequently, and something that worked well was liberally using the comment boxes in the margins of Word. You might want to check out this post she put up awhile back called Beta Thoughts (http://eowyn-315.livejournal.com/57005.html). I think our editing relationship worked because it was an open dialogue. The more you discuss, the more familiar you become with your writer's style and/or needs and it makes you a better beta, as a result.

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Hee! You're like my testimonial. :)

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

He was way more interested in telling his one story than in being a writer.

YES! I've found that to be true so often. Where people just want to know enough to write one story without actually learning the art of writing. And it's frustrating because learning how to write must come first.

It's important if you want to tell one particular story to wait. Write some other stories first. Get some practice. Learn the ins and outs. Hone your skills. Then see about doing that One Story you want to write. Because if you just try to write that One Story without that valuable background of experience, it's gonna suck.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Haha yes! There's actually an original story I've had planned in the back of my head for a long time (a fantasy/sci fi), but while I could write notes out for it and snippets of dialogue, I've never felt ready to write it. I partially view fanfic as writing practice. I still love it, but someday I'd like to feel I have the knowledge and ability to write my own story, my own characters.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Yep. I was thinking of trying my hand at screenwriting for a while because I have an idea for a movie that I just adore. However, when learning the ropes, I started out writing something completely different so as to work out the kinks in my technique before trying for my actual goal there. That's just common sense.

[urania-calliope.livejournal.com]

I totally feel this way too.

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Exactly. I've had new writers ask me to beta long, epic fics for them, and I get through the first chapter and I can tell there's no possible way to wrestle that monster into something post-worthy without starting by teaching them the basics of writing.

I usually suggest trying something shorter and simpler in order to improve their skills first, and usually they say, "But I want to write THIS story."

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

lol! The most common problem I see with new writers is that they tend to summarize what happens instead of telling the story. Like...

"Buffy and Spike meet up in the old crypt, and Spike is mad at her because she's a bitch. Buffy had been drinking earlier so she's real drunk and they get into a big fight.

*bad dialogue bad dialogue*

Then they start having sex.

Meanwhile Dawn's getting home and she sees Clem eating Cheetos and she gets mad because she wants Cheetos, too, but the bag is almost empty so they decide to go to the store..."

Ouch. That hurt to write.

Anyway, dude, that's an outline, not a story! In actual publishing, I've had submissions that strongly resemble this. It makes my head hurt.

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Yep. Telling instead of showing is a big one.

Also, summarizing things we already know - once, I betaed a fic that was Buffy remembering her encounters with Spike. The author literally went through and copied the scenes from the show (almost word for word, except she didn't even quote them accurately) and strung them all together. At the end of it, Buffy had (for no apparent reason) decided that she should totally date Spike (which would be major error #3: rampant OOCness).

[silverusagi]

"Buffy and Spike meet up in the old crypt, and Spike is mad at her because she's a bitch. Buffy had been drinking earlier so she's real drunk and they get into a big fight.

*bad dialogue bad dialogue*

Then they start having sex.

Best story EVAR! Because who cares about all that plot and stuff, just get to them having sex. :)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

*bad dialogue bad dialogue*

You're secretly turning British, aren't you?

Or possibly Canadian.

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Say what? I'm 100% American and I always spell dialogue with a -ue.

[clawofcat.livejournal.com]

Me, too! Is there an alternate way to spell dialogue?

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

'Dialog'. It's how Microsoft spells the word, so I assumed it was the standard American spelling.

How do you spell 'catalogue', then?

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I spell catalogue with the -ue, too. It just looks naked without it. I suppose I prefer to be complex. :)

Now that you mention the computing aspect, though, I do say "dialog box" when talking about the little windows that come up on your computer.

[clawofcat.livejournal.com]

Hm, I've never seen "dialog" used, but I suppose someone out there does.

I actually spell catalogue/catalog both ways, which is odd, but it happens. I have to use the word a fair amount for work, so when I'm hand writing a note I'll put "catalog," but if I'm writing something more formal I'll add the -ue. Peculiar? You bet!

I stick firm by theater, though. Theatre just looks funny.

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I sometimes use "theatre" when talking about live plays on stage, or "musical theatre" as a genre. But I always use "theater" in the context of "movie theater." I blame my "London Theatre" course for that one.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Cheerio, old chap! What a load of tosh! Blimey! Blimey! Blimey!

I mean, what? I didn't realize "dialogue" wasn't an American spelling.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Wiktionary calls it a US and computing simplified spelling variant of dialogue. So maybe not all Americans are simplified after all? :-)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

This is another favorite part of mine:

Because here's the thing: not only is it cruel to encourage the hopeless, but you cannot discourage a writer. If someone can talk you out of being a writer, you're not a writer. If I can talk you out of being a writer, I've done you a favor, because now you'll be free to pursue your real talent, whatever that may be.

I think there's a learning curve with writing. You don't just start and suddenly you're awesome. And there's also a learning curve with understanding the process of writing. And this means understanding concrit and using it to your advantage. My first concrit from another writer was hard to take at first. But that honesty is important. Saying that, my experience with "evil reviewer" a few days ago - I think it was enigmaticblues who said she hoped that it didn't discourage me from writing. Oddly enough, while I was a bit stalled on working on TYSK (this problem existed before the reviewer "attacked"), I went on to write a Spuffy birthday fic and a short oneshot that night.

For me, the more I write the more I realize the more I need to learn.

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Yeah, I almost quoted that part, too, but I couldn't quite relate it to my experience. I don't think I've ever directly tried to discourage someone from writing. I've suggested they go back and learn the basics before trying to write their story, and maybe the huge amount of red on the page has inadvertently discouraged someone, but I don't outright try to talk them out of it altogether.

My first concrit was really hard to take, too. So hard, in fact, that I didn't accept it at first and argued with my beta. Now I'm like a concritaholic - Patti would say, "I think it's fine," and I'd say, "No no no! There must be something wrong with it," and kept showing it to people until I got concrit. :)

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

What you/he said!

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:)

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

That was a great article. Thanks for linking!


My problem has always been in finding betas willing to savage my stuff! My favorite critique I've ever gotten has to have been from my boyfriend, who circled one paragraph and wrote, "Did you get this dialogue from a villager in a bad RPG?"

As a beta in turn, I hope to be as honest, if not necessarily as pithy.

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My problem has always been in finding betas willing to savage my stuff!

Heh, me too. I have told more than one beta to be harsher on me, but they're too gentle. Finally, I just went to a group of about 10 people - I figure if they each point out a couple things to fix, it'll end up well-savaged. :)

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

Finally, I just went to a group of about 10 people - I figure if they each point out a couple things to fix, it'll end up well-savaged. :)

This is my current strategy!

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

ladyofthelog is an excellent beta. *nods*

/endorsement and affirmation

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

<3 thanks!

[urania-calliope.livejournal.com]

I love getting stomped on in reviews because I firmly believe I suck at writing and I really do want to be at least halfway decent.

Great link!

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LOL, that's an excellent attitude. :) But do you find many people willing to do the stomping?

[urania-calliope.livejournal.com]

No unfortunately. :(

I did recently get myself a beta for a longish fanfiction I'm working on that really let me have it! Awesome!

Good betas aren't mean they're honest, sometimes pride stops us from seeing that I think.

I would love to have more betas go at my stuff but 99% of time that I've managed to get myself one the feedback I've gotten has generally been: "Oooh, that was great!" Which is nice, who doesn't love a confidence booster? But I know there must have been at least one or two things in there I could've changed for the better.

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Yeah - I have had many betas, and my experiences with them run the gamut. If you get a good one, cling! Do not let them go! lol

And I am always a little suspicious of a beta who doesn't give me ANY negative comments or criticisms. You're telling me that this fic is so perfect you couldn't find a single thing I could improve? Really? I'd like to think I'm a decent writer, but no one's that good.

Often, that's the sign of a beta who's below your level, which is never good. If you're a stronger writer than your beta, how can you possibly expect them to pick up on things you've missed? A good beta will either be all-around better than you (making it a mentoring sort of thing) or they'll be strong where you're weak and vice versa (making it more of a collaborative partnership).

[shinybaum.livejournal.com]

I will not fix your motherfucking database, set up your motherfucking library for a 'good cause' or research something you can find on motherfucking google.

That felt GOOD.

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Hee! Glad you got that off your chest there. :)

[caromiofic.livejournal.com]

Funny, that article was just quoted on a lit agent's blog today.

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I saw it linked on Complications Ensue, so that may be where the other person found it as well.