Male Feminists?

[next_to_normal]

So, the other day, gabrielleabelle made a post questioning the labeling of Angel as a feminist icon. The general consensus, not surprisingly, is that Angel is NOT the feminist icon we are looking for. But it did make me wonder - are there ANY male feminist icons in popular culture? I can't think of any.

Okay. "Icon" is a pretty high bar. How about just a portrayal of a male feminist character? Any medium. How many can you think of?

I'm also including gingerwall's list of criteria from the same post, just for reference. Your criteria may be different (I expect the third one is particularly difficult to find in pop culture, which might eliminate everybody, lol), but I thought it might be helpful for people who want guidelines.

Here would be my qualifications for the Best Male Feminist Role Model in All of Everything Ever:
- Let the women in his life be autonomous agents and make their own decisions.
- Listen to and carefully consider what women have to say about issues that affect both of them.
- Be aware of how organizations that he is a part of contribute to the oppression of the women in his life and work to change or protest those cultures, all the while getting feedback from those women to make sure he is accurately reflecting their lived experience.
- Encourage the women in his life to defy traditional gender roles and take on powerful positions, even at the expense of his own control and power.

Comments

[gingerwall.livejournal.com]

Hah! I was thinking of doing a post like this also, but you beat me to it. Also I think you have more friends, and most of mine are a subset of yours. So thanks. :)

[next_to_normal]

LOL! Glad to be of service.

[diebirchen.livejournal.com]

How about . . . and take a fair share of all the household work, not divided on the basis of gender or his preferences? It's a biggy!!!

[next_to_normal]

Heh. Like I said, use whatever criteria you want. I'm curious if people will come up with many characters.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Uuuuhh... *thinks*

Season 7 Xander. He definitely qualifies for #1, #2, and #4. And I think in the Buffyverse context where oppression of women is about fighting the First Evil, he's following Buffy's lead in protesting this and fighting it.

For the life of me, I'm having trouble thinking of any other male character who fits this.

[next_to_normal]

I could see that. Which is interesting, because I'd probably classify him as pretty sexist earlier on. Yay for maturity!

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I think becoming a feminist is a big part of Xander's later-season character development. He learns from his S6 mistakes to become more respectful and supportive.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

So how about Giles, then? It's complicated by the fact that he was in a quasi-parental role to Buffy in the early seasons, but still:

1) Definitely. In fact he's been harshly criticised for leaving Buffy to make her own decisions in s6! He was also supportive of Faith in s7 when she became leader.
2) Without doubt.
3) Ditto,at least after 'Helpless'.
4) It's practically the definition of his role in the show.

The problem with any of these discussions is how high do you set the bar. Unless a character is portrayed as some kind of sinless saint and paragon of virtue - which I suspect would be intensely irritating to watch - they're not going to be perfect all the time. So however feminist they usually act, someone will always be able to point to them and say "Aha! What about when they did such-and-such in episode blah-di-blah? Not very feminist there, were they? So much for your so-called icon!"

[next_to_normal]

Well, that's why I qualified it by asking for any male feminist character, not necessarily an icon. With that sort of standard, I'd say we should expect the same from a fictional character as we'd expect of ourselves, and none of us are perfect, either.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

- Let the women in his life be autonomous agents and make their own decisions.

It's not so much that Giles lets Buffy be an autonomous agent. Buffy refuses to heed his will, as he tries again and again to rein her in. Eventually, he gives up and realizes he can't stop her from being an autonomous agent. Then he regresses in S7 LMPTM.

I think for the most part he fits the male feminist model we're discussing, but only after he's been broken of his bad habits in vehemently trying to go against what the model stands for.

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

Ha! It took me a while, but I've got 2.
1. Lloyd Dobbler (John Cusack) in Say Anything. He is 100% willing to put Diane's ambitions before any of his own. Also, even when heartbroken, he refused to stoop to misogynist behavior like name calling and revenge fucking (though his male friends were encouraging him to do so). While they were together, he respected Diane's opinions about things that they differed on--and tried things out with an open mind. And when they broke up, though he sought her out several times, it never really crossed over into creepy behavior, and he did eventually stop contacting her altogether. He also supported the other women in his life: his sister and his two best friends--encouraging them away from behavior that was leading them to be emotionally dependent on men.

2. Schmendrick the Magician from The Last Unicorn. He respects Amalthea/the unicorn--allows her to defend herself even when she seems really vulnerable/scared. He encourages her to do what's best for her in the long run (ie becoming a unicorn again) even though it subverts the standard heteronormative paradigm (ie she has to walk away from a relationship with Prince Lear).

That's all I got.

[next_to_normal]

Heh, I have no memory of Say Anything, but SCHMENDRICK! Yay! *has a total obsession with The Last Unicorn*

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

This is such a distressing topic to me, because i can hardly think of any male feminists in the media. There are a few that I think come close, (http://pocochina.livejournal.com/122359.html) but not many, unfortunately.

There are a lot of characters who come close, and should be characterized that way, but the sexist toolishness of the writer just seeps through and makes them...not. Sam Seaborn, for example.

[next_to_normal]

Oooh, thanks for the link! That was an interesting read. (And yay! Shawn Spencer love!)

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering if we should change the language of this post from "feminist icon" to "feminist ally." I'm using gay rights terminology, because a straight person can be a gay ally, but not necessarily a gay icon, so a man could be a feminist ally rather than a feminist icon, because icon denotates actual personal experience with the oppression. Buffy is a feminist icon because she beats against the patriarchy of the Council, but season 7 Spike and Xander are feminist allies because they've allied themselves alongside Buffy in her fight against the patriarchy.

[next_to_normal]

Good point about icon vs. ally. In the end, I went with "feminist character," which I guess could mean either (though I don't expect to find any male icons).

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

Wanna know something depressing? I'm working on a series of short essays in which I'll view the movies I was obsessed with as a kid/teenager through a feminist lens--and the only 3 that have male characters that can be remotely considered feminist are the ones I already listed. My list of movies is long, too. Like 40 deep. And only 3 feminist men. It's a little disheartening.

[next_to_normal]

That is depressing.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I can't honestly think of one that fits this criteria. They might fit one or two, but I would think finding a pop-culture character that fits all of them would be rare. I think that's probably more reflective of what is consumed as pop-culture.

ETA: Having just finished watching Ep 3 of Starz Ridley Scott-produced "Pillars of Earth", Tom the builder is actually doing pretty good on criteria 1 and 2 (doubt he'll ever pick up the rest of the criteria given that it's taking place in the 1120s. But for a 1100's dude he's surprisingly supportive of his lover, Ellen, even after she's accused of being witch.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Well, you officially gave me a reason go watch that.

[lostboy-lj.livejournal.com]

This is a pretty good list. You forgot the most important one, though:

- Always (ALWAYS!) get the check. Waylay the waiter if necessary, or pay in advance, or buy the restaurant and have the waiter come and tell you "It's on the house, you crazy kids."

[next_to_normal]

:-P

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

To me it would be really important for a male feminist character that he doesn't just treat women ok, but that he's actively into the political concept. Feminism is something that is very often misrepresented by men as something that's not aiming at equality but at female dominance, so to me it's a defining feature if a man just does not opress women but also recognizes the reality that othern men do and doesn't fault them for standing up for themselves, even standing beside them.

Going by this creteria, I think Mal from Firefly somewhat fits the bill.

The breaking point being that he not just has no incentive to curb female autonomy but also that he's aware of male oppression as a problem. It shows with Mrs. Reynolds, with him being the one challenging the embodied Happy Hooker myth, with him picking Kaylee over a man to repair his ship and with Zoe being his most trusted second in command, who's opinion he always takes into consideration.

A character that also impressed me as a kid, though it's aeons since I've seen the series was Indiana jones in the youn indiana jones series (not in the movies naturallly), there's an epiosde where he actively engages with the women's rights movement, whch is something heoes good as never do.

Third there would be Alec from "The privilege of the sword" (by Ellen Kushner, which nobody seems to have read) who is imho the best example though certainly not a feminist role model, he's far too flawed for that, but he's a character, who also actively cares about feminism.
He's a sworn enemy to gender roles and the forced marriage of his sister and her inability to act up against it traumatized him.
He cuts into the autonomy of his niece quite a lot, though in the end a lot less than others did before him and ultimately giving her the opportunity to make her own descisions and standing up for herself. The book makes a great and rare distinction between protecting a woman and protecting her right to do as she pleases.

[next_to_normal]

Huh. I could never get past Mal's treatment of Inara enough to call him a feminist. I don't see him as acknowledging male oppression as a problem so much as being the problem. He embodies the reason the Happy Hooker myth doesn't work, because he still treats Inara like a whore.

He does include women equally in his crew, but that seems to me to be another of Joss' half-assed world-building efforts - in this 'verse, there is gender equality, oh, except for the fact that Mal treats Inara horribly because of her profession. (See also: in this 'verse, the dominant culture is a mix of Western and Chinese, oh, except there are no actual Chinese people around.)

"The privilege of the sword" (by Ellen Kushner, which nobody seems to have read)

Hee! True story - I checked out the first book from the library, and it's been sitting around waiting for my summer class to be over and I'm not overwhelmed with school reading.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

That's a perfect description of Spike.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Season 7 Spike, yes. The guy has some visible evolution that makes him realize that "out. for. a. walk. bitch." behavior is undesirable, and matures beyond it to be Buffy's right-hand man without any quibble about stepping into the secondary role..

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Got two more possibilities, but I'm a little too sleepy to go deeply into reasons why:

- What about Mulder? From what I remember from something like twelve years ago and the ten or so episodes I've re-watched recently, he has no problem with Scully's strength of character.

- Wash (*is watching the Gina Torres episode of the Vampire Diaries*) - does being the best hubby in the Jossverse and happily being Zoe's bitch count?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I agree with both of these. With the caveat that I've only watched the first few seasons of XF.

[thevera.livejournal.com]

Hm. Possibly Nate from Six Feet Under? IDK, he didn't seem threatened by strong and intelligent women, such as Brenda, his then-girlfriend, herself, he felt comfortable with somehow unstable traditional gender roles in their relationship, unlike his siblings he rather supported his mother's sexuality...

[next_to_normal]

Hahaha, I JUST started rewatching SFU last night. I'll have to look out for that. :)

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

Hm, thinking this over, I think I maybe am comfortable to say Rickie Vasquez after all. And a kinda-sorta-maybe with the Lois and Clark version of Clark Kent, though there it's complicated by the show sometimes punishing Lois for being "too pushy", even if Clark never did. (Which adds the question of whether we're looking for a character who is, himself, feminist, or one whose position within the story forwards feminist goals.)

[next_to_normal]

Who is Rickie Vasquez?

(Which adds the question of whether we're looking for a character who is, himself, feminist, or one whose position within the story forwards feminist goals.

Well, the original commenter (the one who called Angel a feminist icon) seemed to be suggesting that the character himself was a feminist. And she was upset because the comics made Angel an abusive boyfriend type, which ruined his feminist image. So I guess it's the former, although I'm open to any discussion, really.

[(Anonymous)]

Rory Williams from Doctor Who definitely fits 1, 2 and 4.

Amy running off with the Doctor is obviously upsetting to him, but when he realizes that's what she needs, he's supportive of her and accepts that although she does love him, he isn't the only thing in her world.

[next_to_normal]

RORY! Aww, I hadn't thought of him. I could see that.

(Here via gabrielleabelle's link)

[agnes-bean.livejournal.com]

I think this is a really cool question, and the fact that is is so hard to think of good examples is really depressing. I've been pondering it, and the most I could come up with was a few examples where I was like "hmmm...they are generally respectful of the women around them, and I don't remember them being particularly problematic...":

--As someone mentioned above, I do think Rory Williams could fall into this category, though I want to see how he acts towards Amy now that he is officially part of team Tardis before giving a solid thumbs up. But he definitely has potential, and I do love the whole Amy/Rory "marriage doesn't have to mean the end of adventures (particularly the adventures that the woman wants)" message.

--Luke (Gilmore Gilrs): While I'm sure he must have displayed some problematic behavior at some point (I haven't watched in ages, and I was too young to have think-y thoughts when the show was on), but from what I remember, he was generally respectful of and impressed by Lorelai and Rory's independence and accomplishments, which is a major plus. Jackson (Sookie's husband) is another one -- very supportive of all the impressive females in his life.

--Marshall Eriksen (Hot I Met Your Mother), except when the writers decide to make him a jerk, instead :/

Re: (Here via gabrielleabelle's link)

[next_to_normal]

I kind of remember Luke having a slightly patronizing "those crazy women" attitude toward the Gilmores, but my memory of the show is fuzzy as well. I don't remember ANYTHING from the Luke/Lorelai relationship, because that was around when I was breaking up with the show.

LOL at Marshall. Someone up there somewhere mentioned Sam Seaborne (The West Wing) as another one who WOULD be feminist if the writers would stop screwing him up. I think in Marshall's case, though, it's that they'll go way OOC for the sake of a punchline, which makes for some bizarre characterizations. (This seems to happen to Robin a lot, too.)

[words-by-ash.livejournal.com]

Linked from Gaby's LJ. Hope you don't mind.

George O'Malley from Grey's Anatomy.

1. There really was no "letting" for the women in his life. They were better than him in some aspects and he worked with them so that they could all be better. There was never a power issue except for when he wanted to be treated less like a girl friend and more like a guy in the beginning of the show.

2. Whether it comes to relationships or friendships, George always respects the opinions of the women in his life.

3. George was studying to be a surgeon which is a male dominated profession but he still protested with the nurses (a more female dominated profession) when they went on strike. He did it because it was right and also because he respected unions due to his mother being a teacher.

4. He openly supported his women counterparts even though they were in competition for the best surgeries. And if he lost he was willing to take a secondary roles.

[next_to_normal]

Don't mind at all! I can't say I've watched Grey's Anatomy, but from your description and what I've absorbed via general pop culture references, George seems like he'd be a good candidate.

[mikeda.livejournal.com]

- Let the women in his life be autonomous agents and make their own decisions.
- Listen to and carefully consider what women have to say about issues that affect both of them.
- Be aware of how organizations that he is a part of contribute to the oppression of the women in his life and work to change or protest those cultures, all the while getting feedback from those women to make sure he is accurately reflecting their lived experience.
- Encourage the women in his life to defy traditional gender roles and take on powerful positions, even at the expense of his own control and power.


I think many (and probably most of the protagonist characters) of the male characters in Charles De Lint's urban fantasy novels probably count. Especially for points 1,2, and 4. 3 is more iffy as generally the stories aren't about changing the culture per se as trying make improvements in individual lives.

St. Germain of Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's Saint-Germain novels also seems to count. Again, point 3 is the most questionable as Saint-Germain generally works within the culture of whatever time he's in rather than directly trying to change it.

(Of course, someone who's 4000 years old and potentially immortal does tend to have a different perspective on things.)

[next_to_normal]

Interesting! I haven't read either set of novels - this post is good for getting recs, too, lol.

Of course, someone who's 4000 years old and potentially immortal does tend to have a different perspective on things.

Heh. I don't know if you read through the comments, but up above agnes_bean and I were talking about that issue in reference to the Doctor, Captain Jack, and Angel. :)