Food for thought

[next_to_normal]

This is something I never noticed from "As You Were," which I only just picked up on while rereading the transcript. Here's Riley's speech to Buffy at the end of the episode (with Buffy's interjections edited out):

"Buffy, none of that means anything. It doesn't touch you. You're still the first woman I ever loved and the strongest woman I've ever known. And I'm not advertising this to the missus, but you're still quite the hottie. [...] So you're not in the greatest place right now. And maybe I made it worse. Wheel never stops turning, Buffy. You're up, you're down... it doesn't change what you are. And you are a hell of a woman."

Sound... familiar?

Here's Spike's speech from "Touched":

"I'm not asking you for anything. When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy."

Seems interesting to me that two very different lovers of Buffy's would hit on such similar themes, even use the exact same wording at times. (Particularly when Riley's speech comes in an episode where Spuffy fans love to vilify him.) Don't know what it means, but it sure is interesting, and I've never seen it pointed out before.

Comments

[silverusagi]

Interesting. Who were the writers for the episodes? I wonder if it was intentional that they both said "hell of a woman," or was just one of those things.

[next_to_normal]

Doug Petrie wrote "As You Were" and Rebecca Rand Kirshner wrote "Touched." It does beg the question of whether it's intentional, but that would mean that one of the greatest Spuffy moments ever was actually kind of a rip-off of a Buffy/Riley moment...

[silverusagi]

I don't keep up with things like this (writers), but I don't suppose one of them was anti-Spike and one was pro-Spike? Maybe someone wanted to overshadow a Riley moment with a greater Spuffy moment?

Or, given the complete lack of continuity on the show, no one noticed similar words had already been said.

No one's probably pointed it out before (at least that we've seen) because Spuffy fans seem to hate As You Were, and avoid watching it. :)

[next_to_normal]

I don't know... Doug Petrie is best known for "Fool For Love," so he can't be that anti-Spike, lol. Kirshner's episodes don't stand out as being particularly pro- or anti-Spike, and she's not one of the more vocal writers (unlike, say, Espenson and Fury, who've made their feelings about Spike pretty obvious) so I don't know where she stands.

[silverusagi]

I'm voting for "they forgot someone had already said that," then. Because I can't for any reason figure out why having Spike echo Riley's words would be intentional.

I don't deny that Buffy is one hell of a woman, or that Riley and Spike would both see that in her, but there's no reason to say it so similarly.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

you have see Dough Petrie's interviews and commentaries haven't you?

The man worships any and every Riley/Marc Blucas shaped thing in the show/planet. You don't know the definition of man crush until you hear and see him talking about Riley. He's not anti Spike though, but he always wants to make Riley look good.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

lol. Word. Watch the commentary on The Initiative. Petrie probably has a shrine to Riley in his bedroom.

Which is part of the problem with AYW because the writer was just too invested in making Riley "look cool" when a lot of fans were, obviously, ready to be openly hostile towards him.

Like fangfaceandrea, I've never gotten the impression that Petrie was in the Spike=evil camp, though.

[next_to_normal]

Yeah... I really don't mind making Riley look cool - we all have our favorites - but if he'd spent a little more time making sure his plot didn't look like Swiss cheese, it'd be a lot harder for the fans to rip Riley apart in this episode (or theorize that he's some ubervillain mastermining this whole scheme).

[silverusagi]

you have see Dough Petrie's interviews and commentaries haven't you?

Um, probably, and no. I watched a lot of interviews when I watched the series the first time, but I've probably forgotten them. I know I don't remember who said what. And commentaries never really did it for me. Maybe I'm a bad fan, LOL, but I just don't find actually listening to commentaries to be that interesting.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

well you're not supposed to remember every little thing they said, I certainly don't, but his Riley love leaves deep marks in your soul. LOL

really, what gabrielleabelle said, the commentaries for The Initiative are to die for. It's kinda cute actually, Petrie's a funny guy in general but he's like a kid on Christmas when he get to write Riley.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I've always felt a little ripped off by the Touched scene for exactly this reason. Spike's her last, best hope, and all he can do is repeat what she's already heard from Riley? I'm sure she didn't forget that Riley said it. You always remember that kind of thing from your exes.

It's laziness from the writers, who already were cutting corners everywhere to fit everything in. *sigh* I just wish Spike had been given a real "only Spike" moment there. But I'm biased. More Spike! More!

[next_to_normal]

Hmm... I never felt ripped off because I didn't notice it until now, lol. But whether it reminded her of Riley or not, Buffy seems to give Spike a lot of credit for giving her the boost she needed.

[electricmonk333.livejournal.com]

I had the same reaction when last I rewatched the series. Riley's speech, however, lacks that je ne sais quoi, I think, partly because Riley doesn't get Buffy like Spike does. When he says those words they come across as just that to me - just words. Ok, perhaps a little more, but still they don't deliver emotionally in the way Spike's words do. Of course, James' delivery might have something to do with it. ;)

Point I am trying so ineloquently to convey is that when Riley made that speech to Buffy, there wasn't as much history to their relationship to deliver the emotional punch.

[next_to_normal]

I noticed in reading over it that Riley's is definitely more plain-spoken, while Spike's is more poetic. Which makes sense, him being a poet and all, but it definitely makes it seem like more of a Significant Moment. (Of course, I'd also say people don't talk like Spike's speech in real life, but Riley's I could buy from a real person.)

And yeah, when Spike says he's seen the best and the worst of her, he really has. Riley's only scratching the surface of the low point she's at.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...well, there's obviously some parallels set up between Spike and Riley. In S5, Spike is jealous of what Riley has, as noted in his comment in Into the Woods

To be that close to her and not have her... To be all alone even when you're holding her, feeling her, feeling her beneath you, surrounding you, the scent of -- no, you've got the better deal.

Oddly enough, Spike finds himself in a very similar position with Buffy in S6, and I think he might have adjusted his thinking.

So it is appropriate, in a way, to have Riley return and say that to Buffy a year after he left. Then to have Spike say something similar to her a year after his relationship with her.

Also, both speeches serve similar functions. Buffy's in a dark place and is ready to give up. The speech is something of a pep talk (More romantic than Xander's "you're my hero" speech to her in The Freshman).

I think both speeches also serve to show the effect that Buffy has on these men. That after she's been out of a sexual/romantic relationship with them for a while, they come to the conclusion that she's still "the one". After all, I wonder if Angel might say something similar if given the chance.

[next_to_normal]

Good thoughts! I do wonder if S6 or S7 Spike reflected on that conversation with Riley and changed his mind on who got the better deal. :)

After all, I wonder if Angel might say something similar if given the chance.

Hmmm. I'd say Buffy had just as much effect on Angel as she had on Riley or Spike, so he very well might. At the very least, he's indicated his availability should Buffy's cookies ever get baked. ;) Of course, some find this wildly out of character due to things you haven't seen yet in Angel S4, but that's a story for another day.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Of course, some find this wildly out of character due to things you haven't seen yet in Angel S4, but that's a story for another day.

Well...just on the basis of what I've seen, I do find the Bangel scene in Chosen to be wildly OOC for Angel. After all, over four years ago, Angel decided that he and Buffy couldn't be together and left her. Then, suddenly, he comes back to Sunnydale bugging her about getting together again? Huh what? What happened to the whole "I'm a vamp. You're a human. It wouldn't work." angst? Did he just get over that?

Plus, he's so damn pushy in that scene. It almost gives the impression that it was her decision to break up all those years ago...when it wasn't. He made the choice.

So, yeah, I see that scene as pretty much pure fan-service (Especially the kiss which was just completely random). It makes no sense to me.

That being said, without knowing more about S4, at this point I do still think that Buffy holds a big part of Angel's heart. She's his angst-bunny, after all. And she was the one who put him on the path of redemption, so I think she'll always be "the one" to him, even though he doesn't think they should actually be together.

Not sure if the thing with Cordy is gonna change my opinion on that much. Will have to wait and see.

[next_to_normal]

What happened to the whole "I'm a vamp. You're a human. It wouldn't work." angst? Did he just get over that?

Well, he must have, to some extent, right? I mean, he's pretty darn in love with Cordy, but he's not really angsting over her being human (but then, so many other things for those two to angst over :P), so he must have come to terms with it to some extent. Angel the series is all about Angel forging connections with humans, so perhaps he's realized that those relationships are worth it, even if he'll outlive the humans.

And she was the one who put him on the path of redemption, so I think she'll always be "the one" to him, even though he doesn't think they should actually be together.

I can see that. And you know, actually, that's a pretty good way to describe Riley and Spike, too, at the point when they give her their speeches. Maybe not the redemption thing for Riley, but they both seem to realize that a relationship with Buffy is never going to happen, but they still recognize that she was special to them, and they love her anyway.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

really? he says that? cause to me it always sounded like"it doesn't change what you are but... you look like hell woman!"

Kidding aside though, coming from Riley it just lacks real emotion, it sounds like something someone tells you when they don't know what else to tell you. It's an empty reassurance and bye bye.

[next_to_normal]

Hee!

I think my point here, though, is that Riley and Spike are basically saying the same thing. So why is one an empty reassurance and one is the greatest romantic connection ever? Is it the wording? The delivery? The circumstances? It seems like people (Spike/Spuffy fans) are very quick to criticize Riley in this ep, but what he does is pretty similar to what Spike does later on. And it seems to have the right effect - Buffy takes the first step in fixing all the things that are screwed up in her life by ending her destructive relationship with Spike - so she clearly didn't see it as empty.

too long and not all that coherent reply

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

the greatest romantic connection ever? Is it the wording? The delivery? The circumstances?

See, I'm going through a spuffy disilusionmet phase so I can't really answer that but in a really superficial way, you know what I like from Spike's delivery? The fact that he's looking up at her and smiling. It's symbolic, he's saying he's probably not going to solve her problems but he's there even when he's surrendering (and yes, I'm seeing way too much in this)and he surrenders to his admiration for her. It's like he's pledging alliance no matter what, and he's aware of how bad thing can get.

A thing I don't like about Riley's speech is what comes before, when he offers to get rid of Spike (no not because he wants to kill my Spike) because is a reminder that he's following her lead despite what he wants and feels he should do. Riley thinks she can take care of things herself and knows that she will do the right thing but that's why he follows her lead because he's certain of Buffy's goodness, not because he knows what she's capable of. He's not compromising anything and, he talks to her as a part of her past, which thankfully she is, but you know it won't go further than that.



I think that the strength of Riley's speech lies in the fact, that a) it reminded her that she is strong and can handle tough decisions and b)came from someone who could expect her to be a hell of a woman, he wasn't involved in her life at that time and from an outsider's perspective straightening out her life is something that doesn't have to be too hard.

Riley makes objective sense is what I'm saying, and Buffy needed something to make sense at that moment.

Re: too long and not all that coherent reply

[next_to_normal]

Well *looks up* clearly I like Spike's speech, too, lol.

because is a reminder that he's following her lead despite what he wants and feels he should do.

Hmm... I think part of that is Riley's personality - he's a soldier, trained to follow orders, and in this case, Buffy has the authority, so he follows her order - but I think it's also a show of respect for Buffy's feelings. I mean, can you imagine how much it would have hurt Buffy if he'd gone ahead and killed Spike? I can't believe he would do that to her, no matter how much he hated Spike or thought he was a danger.

from an outsider's perspective straightening out her life is something that doesn't have to be too hard.

Yeah, I think that makes sense. Sometimes it takes an outsider to put things in perspective - you don't notice it as much when you're living it day in and day out, but an outsider can come in and easily see how much you've changed, and often point out a path you didn't recognize on your own.

[rahirah]

When the episode aired, people either loved or hated that speech, and the ones who hated it often said that it just didn't sound like Spike's phrasing - they were trying too hard to parallel Riley's speech. They had Spike echo Riley's "You say the words, but I don't feel it," lines, too, so I think they were deliberately making a parallel between the two of them - both of them end up leaving Buffy, convinced she doesn't/won't love them no matter how much they love her. Of course, Riley leaves her to deal with Glory on her own, and Spike saves the world in leaving, so it's not all parallels.

What it means that they were making that parallel, and what it's supposed to say about Buffy... I don't know.

[next_to_normal]

When the episode aired, people either loved or hated that speech

Really? Coming into fandom after the fact, I got the impression that Spike/Spuffy fans pretty much universally loved that moment.

I think they were deliberately making a parallel between the two of them - both of them end up leaving Buffy, convinced she doesn't/won't love them no matter how much they love her.

Well, whatever they were trying to say, I think that's a pretty fair assessment of Buffy's character. She'd been hurt, had poured everything she had into her relationship with Angel only to have it blow up in her face, and so she never let anyone get that close again. I'd say maybe we're supposed to see progress in that Buffy seems to let Spike in more than Riley, but a lot of it probably depends on your interpretation of the final episodes and whether you think Buffy loved Spike at the end.

[rahirah]

The haters were in the minority, but definitely there. (A lot of them echoed what was said above - they thought Spike just got a ripoff of a Riley moment.)

In some ways it almost doesn't matter whether Buffy really loves Spike or not at the end - even if she does, she's never able to express it in a way that gets through to him. Or that's how it reads to me, anyhow. I have no confidence that I understand what Joss actually wanted me to think about Buffy, so I can't say if I agree with him or not.

[next_to_normal]

In some ways it almost doesn't matter whether Buffy really loves Spike or not at the end - even if she does, she's never able to express it in a way that gets through to him.

Good point. And yeah, I've given up trying to figure out what Joss intended us to think...

[powerofthebook.livejournal.com]

I don't see the two as being completely similar - they're saying two different things.

In essence, Riley is telling Buffy that she is a great person in a bad situation. He's also telling her that he's aware that with his great life in comparison to hers, he knows he's making it worse. Frankly, it comes across to me as a rather condescending statement, as in "get your life together."

By comparison, Spike is telling her what she means to him, which is something wonderful. She's wonderful because she tries so hard at what she does, both failing and succeeding, and keeps going.

There's also the consideration of what the situation was, before those two statements. Buffy was explaining her "incredible patheticness" to Riley. And Riley was telling Buffy that her life sucks - in bed with an "idiot," in the color orange, smelling of burgers. After his speech, she responds with an apology for their breakup. Which kind of sucks, in my opinion, given the way he treated her and gave her that ultimatum. And then, wife in tow, Riley leaves. Later on, Buffy dumps Spike.

In "Touched," Buffy has a long self-pitying monologue about her lack of connection with anyone that tries. She then pisses Spike off by telling him that the only reason he chased her and went through the trials he did was because she was unattainable. He answers back with what she really means to him. She responds by asking him to hold her, trying for connection.

Or maybe I'm just biased. Sorry for rambling on for so long!

[next_to_normal]

Well, there's certainly different contexts, but in both cases, Buffy is getting down on herself - for different reasons, sure, but the bottom line is that she's in need of a morale boost. Spike and Riley both respond by reiterating their love for her (be it present or past), they both admire her strength, they both make an "opposites" reference - best/worst, up/down - to show that Buffy's had her good days and bad days, and she's just at a low point in her life right now, but they know she will overcome this, because she's "a hell of a woman." And in both cases, Buffy takes that advice and does what she needs to do.

Frankly, it comes across to me as a rather condescending statement, as in "get your life together."

Hmmm... I don't see it as condescending. I see it as encouraging - telling her she CAN get her life together, even though she feels like she can't. Buffy's clearly in need of a pep talk (and a swift kick in the pants), and Riley delivers.

Later on, Buffy dumps Spike.

Well - and I say this as a certified Spuffy fan - I don't think that's a bad thing. :P That relationship with Spike was terribly destructive and unhealthy, and I'd rather see them apart than together like that.

ETA: Re: Buffy's apology to Riley - I agree that sucks. I don't think Buffy owes Riley anything, but I don't see it as a response to this speech. I think she's believed she owes Riley an apology ever since she watched his helicopter fly away. Whether she deserved it or not, I think she blamed herself for Riley leaving, and so this was finally the chance to say what she wanted to. I don't think she said it just because of what he said to her.

[powerofthebook.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, they're both pep talks. And as such, they have their desired effect from two guys who were once involved with her. And the repetition of the phrase "hell of a woman" is hard to ignore. There's even some similarity in the stage direction - Riley reaching out to brush away her hair before leaving her, and Buffy letting him, and Spike reaching out to touch her cheek and Buffy leaning away, and Spike getting down on his haunches to look her in the eyes.

The thing about Riley's is that he prefaced it with all the crappy things about Buffy's life before telling her - "but none of that touches you." She's a great person going through a rough time. Spike, on the other hand, isn't responding to the bad situation that Buffy's in. He's concentrating more on the subject of her being a wonderful person, albeit flawed.

They're both trying to cheer her up in a bad spot, but I think the messages they're conveying are different. They're also coming from two different positions - one, as the guy who's just dropping by and knows very little of what she's been through, and the guy who's been around for most of it, caused some of the problems, and helped solve others.

I do agree with you about the relationship as it stood breaking up - I just wish that Riley's condescending (which I still see it as) speech hadn't been the thing to spur it.

[next_to_normal]

The thing about Riley's is that he prefaced it with all the crappy things about Buffy's life before telling her - "but none of that touches you."

He tries to avoid it at first - when Buffy brings up her patheticness, he tries to play it off like he doesn't know what she's talking about, but it's the elephant in the room, how horrible things are for her. They both know it's there, so he might as well acknowledge it. She's practically forcing him to, so he basically says, "Okay, yes, I noticed how crappy your life is, but I don't think less of you for it."

Spike, on the other hand, isn't responding to the bad situation that Buffy's in.

He does, at first. He starts out by trying to convince her she was right about Caleb and she should take back her leadership. He tries to convince her that's it's chaos at the house without her. When she shoots down all of his practical arguments (which, granted, aren't terribly convincing), he tries to connect on an emotional level - and that's what works.

And really, I don't think he intended it as a pep talk. Initially, when he first walked in the room, that's what he was doing, but then he just got pissed at what she said and wanted to say his piece, and that inadvertently turned into a better pep talk than his previous deliberate attempts to cheer her up.

So, no, they're not exactly the same. (It would be a bizarre coincidence if they were.) But there are some remarkable similarities, which was why I made the post in the first place - but clearly I see it more because I have a more positive view of Riley's speech than you do. I doubt I'll change your mind about Riley, but my explanation obviously comes from how I see it.

[shinybaum.livejournal.com]

It's interesting... I'd take it more as exposition now then, rather than a love scene.

[next_to_normal]

I don't know if it changes my perception of the scene. I haven't rewatched "Touched," but I imagine I'd feel the same about it. Even if we know the backstage machinations - that somebody had to write both speeches, and maybe the echo was intentional - in terms of the characters, Spike didn't hear Riley say it, so it's not like he's aping someone else's speech. They each came up with that on their own, so the fact that Riley said it first doesn't lessen Spike's sincerity.

[shinyshinybaum.livejournal.com]

No I'm sure Spike meant it, I just think it's also the message they wanted to get across to the audience, rather than just Spike saying it.

[next_to_normal]

Eh, I'm hardly ever sure what message Joss is trying to get across. I just know that it's usually not the message I got. :P

[riccadonna.livejournal.com]

The two speeches have a different flavor to me: when Riley says it, it feels to me like he's admitting that Buffy is out of his league, but when Spike says it, he's saying that she's the woman for whom it's worth to take the plunge.

[next_to_normal]

Really? I don't get the "out of his league" vibe. The sentiment I get from Riley is, to use Spike's words, not about whether he wants her or can't have her. That's a moot point now, because he's married. Riley alludes to their past relationship, but he's only using that connection to say who Buffy is and why her current circumstances don't make her any less.