S7 Spuffy pondering
Jul. 24th, 2009 01:58 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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snickfic made a post on the things she doesn't like about Spike in S7. I'll just copy the relevant point here:
The non-discussion of the AR. It is the huge purple elephant in the room in S7, rarely referred to but entirely overshadowing Spike and Buffy's relationship. I wish they'd actually talked it out sometime, even if we didn't see much of the discussion on screen. Just a hint that this was something that they were working through and moving on from would have been helpful.
In the comments,angearia asked a very good question, which is: "What discussion of the AR would be satisfying? What needs to be said to make it work?"
And so I'm curious. I've seen plenty of people express displeasure with the way the AR (or even the entire S6 Spuffy relationship in general) was brushed aside in S7, but I don't know that I've ever seen anyone answer Emmie's question of what would make it better. (This may or may not be relevant to a fic idea I'm working on, but I ask more out of curiosity than anything else, as one who doesn't have a problem with what we were given.)
It seems like a difficult question to answer, since there's no real life equivalent to going and getting a soul, but are there expectations that Spike - or Buffy, for that matter - need to meet to make it "okay" for them to pursue a relationship again? Are verbal apologies and forgiveness necessary, or do actions speak louder than words? What is it that people find lacking about the way it was addressed on the show?
snickfic made a post on the things she doesn't like about Spike in S7. I'll just copy the relevant point here:The non-discussion of the AR. It is the huge purple elephant in the room in S7, rarely referred to but entirely overshadowing Spike and Buffy's relationship. I wish they'd actually talked it out sometime, even if we didn't see much of the discussion on screen. Just a hint that this was something that they were working through and moving on from would have been helpful.
In the comments,
angearia asked a very good question, which is: "What discussion of the AR would be satisfying? What needs to be said to make it work?"And so I'm curious. I've seen plenty of people express displeasure with the way the AR (or even the entire S6 Spuffy relationship in general) was brushed aside in S7, but I don't know that I've ever seen anyone answer Emmie's question of what would make it better. (This may or may not be relevant to a fic idea I'm working on, but I ask more out of curiosity than anything else, as one who doesn't have a problem with what we were given.)
It seems like a difficult question to answer, since there's no real life equivalent to going and getting a soul, but are there expectations that Spike - or Buffy, for that matter - need to meet to make it "okay" for them to pursue a relationship again? Are verbal apologies and forgiveness necessary, or do actions speak louder than words? What is it that people find lacking about the way it was addressed on the show?
no subject
Date: Jul. 24th, 2009 07:48 pm (UTC)So yeah, I do think that talking would have been good at some point. And yeah, it's a very, very difficult subject to talk about without getting all After-School Specially. Buffy did talk about some of this stuff, with Holden, whom she killed immediately afterwards. I think... and I've never thought about this before, but... Buffy in canon either couldn't talk about this stuff to Spike, or wouldn't, and either way, it says that for some things, things really close to her heart, she either didn't trust him, or feared his disapproval. (Which is why, I think, she'd never talk to Dawn or Willow about them.) And after S6, I can't imagine why she would have feared his disapproval; he already knew her worst. But she still couldn't/wouldn't allow herself to be vulnerable to him in any way (until, perhaps, that moment in the Hellmouth, when she had a very reasonable assurance that he, like, Holden, was about to die, and so it didn't matter that she'd bared her soul.)
This is totally un-useful, isn't it?
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Date: Jul. 24th, 2009 08:05 pm (UTC)Hmmm. I generally agree with you on the miscommunication thing (particularly the I love you/No you don't), but I do think the message here is pretty clear. I don't see how Spike could interpret Buffy's behavior as NOT having forgiven him - I think the problem arises when it comes to taking that step from forgiveness to relationship. Neither is sure if the other wants it (and that makes sense. Forgiveness does not automatically mean "I love you" or even "I want a relationship"), and so neither makes a move.
This is totally un-useful, isn't it?
Heh, no, you make a good point. I think you're right about Buffy not allowing herself to be vulnerable. At the very least, it affirms my premise that Buffy needs some quality therapy in order to properly communicate with Spike. :)
no subject
Date: Jul. 28th, 2009 03:59 am (UTC)This is very useful to me. It's a different picture of Buffy than the previous seasons had established - as someone who absolutely can't talk about what's closest to her heart unless it's immediately going down some kind of memory hole, i.e., the Holden incident - but then I guess that's the point, that she'd become a different character by that point, closed and unavailable.
However, her being closed down hardly prevents other characters from talking to each other about her feelings and speculating about them, much as we viewers were. That's the route I probably would've gone with, especially with a houseful of curious newcomers available. But then the writers never asked me. : )