I probably shouldn't post things when I'm tired

[next_to_normal]

I was talking to slaymesoftly last night about how I'm finding myself disappointed with Spuffy fic more often, and I said something like, "Even though I'm a Spuffy fan, I get tired of reading fic after fic about them getting together. At some point, it just gets repetitive, and I feel like I'm reading the same fic over and over." There are, after all, only so many ways to "fix" Spuffy. And (as usual) I kind of got the feeling that I'm a little weird, because I don't really care if my OTP ends up happy, miserable, or dead, as long as it's a good story.

Then, today, angearia asked for recs for writing tips/websites/etc. and I followed a trail of recs from her post to this one on tension, and I had a lightbulb moment. Here's what the poster had to say:

"In the early stages, I am so in love with the characters that I always care about what happens to them, so absent the "killer factors" I am likely to read and enjoy a wide variety of stories. But at some point I am not automatically invested in, say, John and Rodney getting together. When that happens, I need more than just that. That is, it can certainly be a romance in which the plot is entirely about John and Rodney getting together. But the story needs to dangle compelling questions in front of my nose, to make me feel that it is important for them to get together, to show me the obstacles to them getting together - which will make me want to read more and find out how it happens."

That's exactly it. It's not enough for me that a fic has Spike and Buffy in it. It's not enough that they get together. (In fact, sometimes I'd rather they didn't get together.) I'm not automatically sold on a story just because it's about my OTP. Maybe I'm picky, but I want it to be compelling, too.

The thing is, I'm not tired of Spuffy. It's not that I find their relationship any less compelling than I used to. What I think I am tired of is reading the same old recycled plots and premises, because I already know how it's going to go, and that's not compelling.

I feel like this dovetails with a lot of different things - the "what if" approach to fic vs. the "fix it" approach, real conflict vs. false/manufactured conflict, predictable endings, gen fic vs. shippy fic, tension in sex scenes - but I don't have the energy right now to do a long meta, so I'm kind of just throwing it out there.

Comments

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts. I've been pondering lately about the different "types" of fanfics and such. Plus, you know I have a fondness for fics where Buffy and Spike are already together, which requires there to be an actual plot to cause conflict.

I think the fact that BtVS is an older fandom means that, yeah, a lot of the obvious ideas have been done. A lot. Over and over. And, like you, I do get kinda tired of the same old same old. It means that writers have to work harder to come up with something different and exciting.

Yeah, I'm not really going anywhere with those thoughts. But it is something I've been thinking about lately. :)

[next_to_normal]

Yeah, probably the older fandom thing has a lot to do with it. I've never actually been in a fandom where the show was canceled before I even started watching it... in most cases, when the show ends, so does my interest in it.

I guess the other part of it is that I usually do work harder to come up with something different and exciting. I've scrapped plenty of fic ideas because I couldn't come up with anything to differentiate them from the 1,000 fics already out there with the same idea. And, naturally, everyone else should think like me *g* so it kind of surprises me that other people are happy to read and write the same stories over and over.

[rahirah]

That's one big reason I write series. Once I've gotten the characters together, I'm not interested in that any longer. I've been there and done that, and I want to go someplace else and do something different. Which isn't to say that series don't have their own problems, but at least they're a different set of problems.

OTOH, a lot of people are limerance junkies: they want that swooning will-they-won't-they first love moment over and over. And over and over and over and over. Witness the popularity of romance novels in general.

[next_to_normal]

You speak the truth. :) Actually, I see the popularity of romance novels and the popularity of AH as being pretty closely related. AH basically provides infinite ways to create that first love moment without repeating yourself (though, inevitably, they do, if the number of teacher!Spike/student!Buffy fics is any indication).

If only that weren't exactly the opposite of what I'm looking for, I'd be all set, lol.

[snickfic]

What I think I am tired of is reading the same old recycled plots and premises, because I already know how it's going to go, and that's not compelling.

Yep. I'm right with you. It's one of the huge reasons I have a thing for S4 and early-S5 Spuffy: the author can't just work through Spike and Buffy's issues, because they don't really have any together yet, so the plots tend to be more original. But I'm up for Spuffy set just about anytime if the author has an interesting premise and does more than just rehashing old issues (and, you know, has all that other good stuff like recognizable characterization, decent prose, etc).

I'm beginning to think that the evolution of a fandom - or maybe even a pairing in fandom - is a lot like the evolution of a genre, say science fiction. A lot of pulp SF in the 30's and 40's featured labcoated scientists making Discoveries. And... that was pretty much it. They discovered something, they talked about it a bit, occasionally the something tried to kill them. But eventually readers and writers started pushing for more plot, greater character complexity, etc. And yet, to some extent, SF as a genre is still building on Clarke and Asimov. And I wonder if a long-lasting fandom or pairing doesn't work like that, too - once you've worked out all the obvious permutations of Spuffy, people start writing the less obvious ones. (Of course, then you've got people like Yahtzee who were doing totally unique stuff right of the box...)

Hmm, not sure how coherent that was. Short version: I agree with you. *g*

[next_to_normal]

It's one of the huge reasons I have a thing for S4 and early-S5 Spuffy: the author can't just work through Spike and Buffy's issues, because they don't really have any together yet, so the plots tend to be more original.

Hmmm, I don't know about that. Every season has its standard Spuffy tropes. In s2 it's "Spike has his way with 17th century Buffy on Halloween" or "Buffy feels bad for wheelchair-bound Spike." In s4 it's all about the "Something Blue" spell, or "Buffy realizes Riley's an ass and Spike is the perfect man for her." (That one shows up a lot in s5, too.) And then in all seasons you've got "a spell made us do it," mystical-pregnancy babyfics, claims, etc.

I don't think it's season so much that determines the originality of the fic. I think a lot of it has to do with the author. In the hands of a good author, even those tropes can be made original (sometimes in a deliberate "Ha! I'll show them it can be done!" effort).

I'm up for Spuffy set just about anytime if the author has an interesting premise and does more than just rehashing old issues (and, you know, has all that other good stuff like recognizable characterization, decent prose, etc).

Word. :)

The analogy to sci-fi is an interesting one, although I think maybe it works more on an individual scale than a fandom level. There are definitely readers and writers like us who get bored with the obvious and start looking for the less obvious. But there's always the churn of fans who leave altogether when they get bored, and new fans entering the fandom who lap up the obvious stuff, because they haven't read it twenty times yet. So the obvious stuff keeps being popular, even when the old guard is tired of it.

[snickfic]

I think a lot of it has to do with the author. In the hands of a good author, even those tropes can be made original (sometimes in a deliberate "Ha! I'll show them it can be done!" effort).

Very true. I dunno; in my experience, the mediocre fic for, say, S4 tends to be doing a wider variety of things than the mediocre S6 fic. But I definitely sympathize with the "anything can good if it's written well enough" school.

The analogy to sci-fi is an interesting one, although I think maybe it works more on an individual scale than a fandom level.

Possibly true. I guess I was thinking more that once you have the obvious stuff, you're more likely to start getting the less obvious stuff. Like, I think some of that groundwork needs to get laid in the fandom consciousness before you're likely to get anything radical. Faith/Giles is my brand new ship (thanks to the comics), and at this point most of the fic I'm seeing is of the plotless, conversation- and sex-based variety. And I think you almost have to have that before writers start branching out into plottier, more complex stories.

Actually, it occurs to me that a ship like Spander would be a great way to test this, one way or another - since it's never been canon and yet is wildly popular, in theory you ought to be able to trace the evolution of the ship, to some extent. Except that would involve actually reading the fics, which I have no desire to do. *g*

Or maybe I'm just talking out of my hat. Always a possibility. :)

[next_to_normal]

I dunno; in my experience, the mediocre fic for, say, S4 tends to be doing a wider variety of things than the mediocre S6 fic.

Yeah, that's probably true. But I'm not sure it's such a good thing that there are more ways to be mediocre. :)

I guess I was thinking more that once you have the obvious stuff, you're more likely to start getting the less obvious stuff.

Hmmmm. I've never really come into a fandom at the beginning, so there's always been a good selection of fics by the time I got there. It does seem like a logical pattern for ships to follow.

[deird1]

Heh. We need someone who actually reads Spander to do all our research for us...

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

In s4 it's all about the "Something Blue" spell, or "Buffy realizes Riley's an ass and Spike is the perfect man for her."

I think s4 has so many opportunities for an original plotting. There are traditional spells. There is The Initiative - so a writer can use sci-fi technologies to develop an original situation. There is Mayor's body-switching mojo. There already is a LA support team - Doyle with his visions; Kate, if you need a police factor; and Angel, who is always there when you need him to provide a bit of jealosy.

The only problem with season 4 is the absence of the place where you can gather all the characters. In season 1-3 it's the school library. In s5-6 - The Magic Box. In s7 - Casa Summers. But season 4 has only Giles' apartment. Send Giles away for a while and the plotting becomes much harder... :)

[deird1]

Hmmm... Now I want to send Giles on holiday, just to see what happens to everyone else...


(Dammit, moscow, stop giving me plotbunnies!)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... Now I want to send Giles on holiday, just to see what happens to everyone else...

Believe me, they can't find a place to meet. Buffy and Willow live in the campus room, Xander lives in a basement, Spike lives in a crypt. Once I wrote a s4 fic in Russian: Faith ends up in Buffy's body and escapes to LA, Buffy ends up in Spike's body and learns a lot of unexpected things about vampires and Spike ends up in Faith's body and sucessfully turns Buffy's life in a nightmare. I immediately realized that Giles would have figured out who is who in a heartbeat, so I sent him away... and found out I don't have a place where I could gather Scoobies for discussions, research etc.

(Dammit, moscow, stop giving me plotbunnies!)

Heeee! This is my evil plan - to seduce you with an idea of a long plotty story...

[next_to_normal]

The only problem with season 4 is the absence of the place where you can gather all the characters.

LOL, I never really thought about that, but yeah. Giles really doesn't appear much in "Closure" - there's one group research scene at his apartment, but other than that, it's all scenes of twos and threes at the dorm or Xander's house.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

So my request led to you having thinky thoughts today, eh? :)

I do find myself getting bored with some of the popular Spuffy fanfic tropes. It's partially why I love time travel fics because it jumbles up the whole predictable equation. And I guess it's why I'm writing Season 8 fic which one reader said something like 'takes the interesting premises of Season 8, ignores the rest and makes it Spuffy'. As a reader though, it's rare for me to find new Spuffy fic that hits that right note and feels like an instant classic. I've seen and read too much. Gah, I've been reading Spuffy fanfic since 2003.

[next_to_normal]

Pretty much everything leads to me having thinky thoughts, lol.

It's partially why I love time travel fics because it jumbles up the whole predictable equation.

Huh. I would say that time travel is just as much of a trope as anything else - there's so many "Buffy goes back to 1880 and meets human William" fics, and they all basically end with Buffy getting back to the present and developing feelings for Spike after knowing him as a human. And the number of "Buffy and/or Spike go back in time to fix something which results in their relationship turning out better in the future" fics is probably even higher - especially the "Buffy realizes she screwed up after Spike is dead, and goes back in time to fix it." There's certainly potential for originality, but most authors don't seem to go for it.

I was really hoping that Season 8 would bring lots of original fic ideas, since it's the first fresh material we've had to work with in years. But overall, there really hasn't been much fic coming out of it. Of course, I don't like how S8 has turned out (which was a disappointment in itself), so I'm not too interested in the fic anyway.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I agree that once you've read the first four hundred Something Blue fics (et al), it does begin to get old. Which is kind of a shame when someone really good writes a fic using one of the over-used tropes and people maybe don't bother to read it because they're burned out on the episode and it's stories. OTOH, there's a reason why so many fics begin with or are set within certain episodes - it's because something about them resonates with readers, or they are places where a little thing might have changed everything and the reader wants to see how this particular author explored that change.

I agree with snickfic that Season IV and V allow for more exploration of "what if" scenarios because not as much has happened to the couple yet. The act of getting these two natural enemies together is the conflict - the challenge is doing in it some way that someone else hasn't already thought of. Easier said than done at this point in the fandom.

I find myself more interested in future fics now, though. There's more room for imagination,and not so many ideas have occurred to other writers yet. Although, I could really do without Buffy punching Spike in the nose the first time she sees him...that one's already way past old.

[next_to_normal]

OTOH, there's a reason why so many fics begin with or are set within certain episodes - it's because something about them resonates with readers, or they are places where a little thing might have changed everything and the reader wants to see how this particular author explored that change.

True. But even then, there's only so many ways it can go. No matter how many little things you change about "Something Blue," you're almost always going to end up with a fic where the spell gets them together sooner than they would have in canon. Maybe a good author can come up with an original twist (I like to think I did, by using "Hush"), but even then, it's still a fairly predictable result.

Although, I could really do without Buffy punching Spike in the nose the first time she sees him...that one's already way past old.

LOL, I've used that one, too. Although I wrote it two and a half years ago, so it was probably more original then. :)

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

LOL *nods* one of my very first fics (or very first post Chosen fics, I guess) has Buffy decking Spike the minute she sees him. At the time, I thought I was being hilarious and original.LOL I'd like to think it was, but probably not.

And, yeah, same for a lot of my season IV/V fics. The ideas seemed new at the time, but with great minds thinking alike and all that, they now are just one more version of same-old, same-old. Since the point of most Spuffy fic (barring those stories that are more gen and just have the two in the story - pre or post spuffy maybe) is to get them together, it seems logical to me to use the obvious point where canon has provided an excuse. The only original way to twist that episode, is to have her stake him in a fit of embarrassment. But then, there goes the rest of the show....

I guess, there just are certain places/events that lend themselves to earlier than canon togetherness, and I don't really have a big problem with an author using them as taking off points as long as the story itself is fairly original and interesting. If someone comes up with a point in canon that is unique from anything anyone else has used, more power to them. Certainly a story that went off from someplace like that would be unlikely to be boring. But I don't think it means that those who've used the more obvious events haven't written entertaining stories.

[next_to_normal]

Since the point of most Spuffy fic (barring those stories that are more gen and just have the two in the story - pre or post spuffy maybe) is to get them together, it seems logical to me to use the obvious point where canon has provided an excuse.

Heh, well, there's the problem right there. Like I said in the original post, I'm not looking for Spuffy fic that's just about them getting together, so picking an obvious point to make it easy to get them together is usually exactly the opposite of what I want to read.

But I don't think it means that those who've used the more obvious events haven't written entertaining stories.

Well, of course. No statement about fanfiction is an absolute. I feel like people assume that a lot. I'll say I don't like something in a post and there's always a response like, "So you're saying all (fill in the blank) fics suck?" No, they don't. There's always an exception. But the more fics you read with the same premise, the less entertaining they're going to be - which was what prompted this post, when I read the #458th fic with that particular premise and rolled my eyes.

[seapealsh.livejournal.com]

You're making me think! I'm an avid Spuffy reader and I too get tired of the same ol' plot. I do have great affection for time travel fix it fics that bring the romance into play. But I love the epics, where there is slowly built up Spuffy to go along with a great adventure involving the whole gang. Other characters can develop their 'ships, new friendships can arise, new characters can be created and developed. But epics require enormous time, effort, and creativity by the writer - it's a big investment. But oh how I love me a good epic. Especially a good epic time travel fix it fic!!!! (best of both worlds)

[next_to_normal]

Well, as I said above to angearia, I think time travel fics have become a trope of their own, especially the "fix it" ones. (And I have issues with those, but that's more about sci-fi and paradoxes than how it affects Spuffy.)

But I love the epics, where there is slowly built up Spuffy to go along with a great adventure involving the whole gang.

Word. I think I prefer fics that incorporate the whole gang, because it feels more like the balance of the show. Plus, as much as I love Spike and Buffy, I love all the other characters, too.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

You're not alone. Recently I wrote my first Spuffy fic in which they don't end up together (http://community.livejournal.com/seasonal_spuffy/315549.html), and the feedback was overwhelming. I suppose a lot of people have the same attitude.

[msclawdia.livejournal.com]

I sometimes toy with writing a story where they don't end up together. I think they make an interesting and compelling, though far from perfect, couple. Especially when I read something like st salieri's great April Fool's Day list and am reminded of the endless junior-highish tropes you run into in a lot of Spuffy fic. So I sometimes think about writing somewhere where Buffy ends up content and relatively settled and not with Spike because she is not a trophy and because women are not obligated to return the affection of their stalkers no matter how much their obsessers love them.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I sometimes toy with writing a story where they don't end up together.

I'd gladly read it!

I love stories that end on a holeful note: maybe, someday... Or stories where they part but learn a lesson from their experience. Or Spuffy what-ifs, that deviate from the canon but, eventually, steer back to the story we saw onscreen.

[next_to_normal]

not with Spike because she is not a trophy and because women are not obligated to return the affection of their stalkers no matter how much their obsessers love them.

Oh man. Unrelated to this post, but you totally hit on a nerve with that one. It drives me crazy when I see people who insist that Buffy ought to be with Spike just because he loves her, as though she's somehow obligated to indulge anyone who has feelings for her, regardless of how she may feel about him. (I don't recall anyone saying that on Xander's behalf in s1/s2...)

[msclawdia.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's a big peeve of mine not just in stories, but in life too. No one, fictional warrior woman or otherwise, is required to give another person the time of day just because that person wants her to. You're not required to have coffee with that guy in accounting just because he's 'nice' and he likes you. And you're not required to go on a date with your quasi-reformed, neutered former nemesis who has many times tried to kill you just because he's suddenly decided you're keen.

[shapinglight]

Hope you don't mind me butting in here, just wanted to say that the suggestion Buffy owes Spike something just because he wants her makes me quite cross for Spike's sake, let alone for any other reason, because in season 7 it's so plain that he not only feels she doesn't owe him a damn thing, but actively feels he cannot ask her for help because of the wrong he did her.

[next_to_normal]

Good point - and definitely agreed on Spike in s7. I usually see this argument more in s5 and s6 when he's pursuing her. I've seen people say, "WTF is wrong with Buffy? He LOVES HER! She should love him back!" or "He loves her! How dare she reject him?" as though his love for her puts some kind of responsibility on her to reciprocate.

[shapinglight]

Oh dear! Can only suppose they are very immature people.

[next_to_normal]

Heh, as long as you said it, not me. :) I find that they're mostly Spike fans who hate Buffy, and so will find any excuse to bash her. (You'd think that would preclude them from being Spuffy fans, but there's this supremely weird tendency for Spike fans to be Spuffy fans solely because Spike is in love with Buffy, and thus they want Spike to be happy, even if they don't like who he wants to be happy with.)

[shapinglight]

I've come across that attitude a few times over the years, but I really thought that most of the people who felt that way had long since moved on to pastures new, mainly because I was sure that if they rewatched the show once the dust of battle (as it were) had settled, they would see they were wrong about a lot of things, and if they hadn't bothered to rewatch,that must surely mean they'd lost interest.

Many of us did have a skewed perspective about some things back in the day, which is hard to explain to those who weren't around at the times. The Spike/Spuffy fans got so much stick in the wider fandom that they had a tendency to circle the wagons and defend Spike, no matter what. I really did think most people had got over that, though.

[next_to_normal]

I've mostly seen it on BSV, and obviously that's a Spike and Spuffy friendly place, so there's no need to be uber-defensive. *shrug* Sometimes I think I'm the only one over there who even likes Buffy. Maybe - lucky us - there is a whole new generation of skewed perspectives joining the fandom.

[shapinglight]

I suppose I would be very unlikely to come across it any more, seeing as I don't read a lot of Spuffy and never visit the BSV. I even had to stop a minute and remind myself what it was then. I get it mixed up with BSG.

[next_to_normal]

Interesting, lol. I'm sure there are probably a lot of people out there who would enjoy a story even if they don't get together, but it definitely seems like the expectation for most fics is that they'll get together.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you mean. I grew tired of Spuffy fics after I was a judge for a contest. My category was WIPs. Some of the entries were over 60 chapters long. It was a bit much in a short length of time so I backed off the pairing for awhile.

When I do take the time to read (or rec) a Spuffy fic now, it's because I think there's something deeply compelling or extraordinary about it.

[next_to_normal]

Some of the entries were over 60 chapters long.

Yeah, as much as I love epic fics, there are many out there that could benefit from a good editor. Even though they want them together, people like to draaaaag out the actual Spuffy.

When I do take the time to read (or rec) a Spuffy fic now, it's because I think there's something deeply compelling or extraordinary about it.

LOL, I'm probably super-picky, because that's what I want for EVERY fic (both the ones I read and the ones I write).

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

because that's what I want for EVERY fic (both the ones I read and the ones I write).

Hee!

[shapinglight]

I wanted to comment on this post last night, but I got too tired to be coherent.

Was going to say something along the lines of, when you've been reading fanfic for a while, it becomes increasingly difficult to find something to read that doesn't feel like something you've seen many times before. Perhaps there are only so many themes and it becomes harder and harder to find a new variation on it?

For myself, though I read a lot of Spuffy in the past, I barely read it now, so when I write it, I'm very conscious that I could well be repeating something others have already done many times with the couple without even realising it.

Am not much interested in Spuffy stories the whole point of which is getting them together, though. I tend to want to focus on what came after that.

[next_to_normal]

when you've been reading fanfic for a while, it becomes increasingly difficult to find something to read that doesn't feel like something you've seen many times before.

True, although I still kind of think of myself as a newbie. I'm not really - I've been reading and writing for almost three years - but compared to people who've been here a decade and haven't gotten bored yet, I feel like I've barely cut my teeth.

Perhaps there are only so many themes and it becomes harder and harder to find a new variation on it?

Probably true. Part of me wants to say that there are infinite possibilities, but when you boil it down, there's probably only so many stories to tell.

[silverusagi]

I've only been reading Spuffy for two years, but the other day I was struck by how many updates on archives I'm not reading. There are very few WIP I'm following right now. A lot just seems like, "oh, another _blank_ fic." A lot of it has been done before, and done again and again. But I continue to search for new and exciting things, LOL.

[next_to_normal]

Yeah... I gotta say, I can't remember the last time I read something on BSV. Even before the blank-chapter crisis, I very rarely checked for updates. I can't think of any WIPs I'm following, except for yours and gabrielleabelle's on LJ.