Cordy/Angel meta

[next_to_normal]

There's a thread on the BSV forum on the Cordy/Angel relationship, and I'll probably get around to posting this there  when I get a chance, but I figured I might as well jot down my thoughts while I was thinking them. Also, I've been trying to post more stuff here besides fic and memes, and for the most part, people seem to like the meta, so here goes.

I was never really into Cordy/Angel. I mean, I get objectively why they'd make a good pairing, but I just wasn't invested in them. (Also, I think the things that would make them a good pairing are the same things that made them a fantastic friendship, so why mess with a good thing?) So, last night, I was watching "Spin the Bottle" (thank you, Scarlet), and I finally figured out what about the ship turns me off.

It's trying to be Bangel.

It's as though the writers felt like the best way to compete with the Buffy/Angel relationship was to make Cordy/Angel just as star-crossed - even though the relationship was completely different. The thing is, Cordy and Angel had this deep friendship Buffy and Angel never had. And it didn't have to be romantic - their chemistry reminds me a lot of early Buffy/Willow, or season 5 Angel/Spike. (In fact, Cordy's relationship with Angel is exactly like Spike's. They both know him better than anyone, they're the ones to always call him on his shit, and they're the best at bringing out both petty!Angel and hero!Angel... and omg, I just realized that Spike was totally brought in to replace Cordy twice.)

Er, yeah. Where was I? Right. Angel and Cordy, totally different foundation from Angel and Buffy. But as soon as Angel recognizes his feelings for Cordy, the writers start throwing up one artificial roadblock after another, trying to come up with ways to keep them apart, when there's really no good reason to. First it's Groo, then Cordy disappears, then she's back but she's lost her memory, then she remembers everything, but she knows too much, then the Connor thing, and then he's evil, and then she's evil, and by the time we get to the coma, instead of thinking how sad it is that they missed their chance and they'll never be together, I'm going ZOMG, thank goodness it's finally OVER! Which I don't think was the intention...

The thing is, Bangel was star-crossed because they really could never be together. Even without the vampire/Slayer obstacle, or Angel's slippery soul, their relationship was teenage and idealistic, and that never, ever works out in real life. But Cordy and Angel were different. They had a solid friendship, and there was no good reason they couldn't turn it into a relationship, if they'd just, y'know, put a little effort into it. But instead we get two years of UST and pining away, and the whole time I'm thinking, "Be together. Don't be together. It doesn't matter. Just stop angsting about it." (Which, incidentally, is what I spent much of the early seasons saying to Buffy and Angel.)

If they wanted to go the relationship route with Cordy and Angel, the model shouldn't have been Bangel, it should have been Spuffy. Sure, Buffy and Spike were messy, and complicated, and occasionally just plain awful, but they were real. The conflict between them was internal, not some external roadblock that keeps them apart (and, IMO, internal conflict is always a better story than external conflict). And that's what I wanted to see from Cordy/Angel (or would have wanted to see, if I'd actually cared about them getting together).

Or maybe I'm just completely anti-pairing on Angel, since this episode also reminded me how annoying the Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle was. I didn't mind Fred and Gunn together, but with Wes pining away... I mean, holy crap, boys, stop fighting over her! She's not worth it!

I can't actually think of any ship I liked on that show (except for the implied Spangel). Cordy/Doyle? Mostly one-sided and he was gone too fast for me to get invested. Angel/Fred? Totally hero worship and icky. Wes/Lilah? I... kinda block that out since it was during the parts of season 4 I dislike. Cordy/Connor? No explanation needed. Lindsey/Eve? I just hate Eve, so anything that gives her more screen time is bad. Wes/Fred? Weirdly obsessive and by the time they got together, I think Wes was more in love with the idealized version of Fred he'd pined for than the actual girl. Angel/Nina? Blah. Nina was practically a non-entity.

It's funny, because although I clearly have my preferences (*cough* Spuffy), I don't have any problem with the other canon pairings on Buffy (except Willow/Kennedy), and I regularly incorporate them into my fics. But Angel, for some reason, is like pairing kryptonite to me.

Comments

[goodbyebird]

Basically, Wesley/Lilah for me is the show going "thank you for sticking this out. Here, have a treat." But oh boy was that a chocolate covered treat.

I'll agree with you on the other ships on Angel. They never roped me in. Well, except for the slight Illyria/Wesley thing goign on at the end there.

[next_to_normal]

Haha, it's possible that's what it was. Unfortunately, I only have vague memories of Wes/Lilah, since I couldn't bring myself to rewatch the icky middle of s4. (It only gets good again when Angel loses his soul, but then Lilah kicks it pretty quickly.)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Hee. I have to admit to having loved Wes/Lilah. It was just so horribly screwed up and hot. ::fans self:: There was lots more story for those two.

[clawofcat.livejournal.com]

I second the Wes/Lilah hotness. Disfunctional, violent, kinky, guilt-ridden, scorchingly hot sex? Hm, now who does that remind me of?

Oh yeah... S6 Spuffy. And both partners were banging the crap out of each other on concurrent seasons.

Man, I wish there were more Wes/Lilah fic out there. AmyB and and likeadeuce have some amazingly wonderful dark, sexy character studies of the two of them.

[goodbyebird]

Ah, and also with the Angel/Cordelia relationship(and the Nina one for that matter), if you were a guy that lost his sould and killed a bunch of people because you got some hanky panky, how much of an asshole would you have to be to risk that again? I never got it.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

is like pairing kryptonite to me. *snerk* I think we're zeroing in on your only wanting to write Spuffy....

I loved Doyle, and I've read a wonderful short fic in which he gives Cordy a really fun day at the beach that is completely the opposite of the sort of thing she thinks she likes. It made me want them to get together. :) It's sad that he was gone so quickly.

Amazing comparison of Spike to Cordy. I wouldn't have thought of it, but you're right. They have very similar relationships with Angel. Good call.

[next_to_normal]

But it's not just Spuffy! I mean, they're obviously my favorite, but I've written Spillow and Willow/Oz, as well as Xander/Anya and Willow/Tara in my more ensemble-type fics. I may not spend a lot of time on them, but at least I like the Buffy ships. On Angel, I can't find two people I actually liked together, lol.

[serendipityxxi.livejournal.com]

Can I get a link to that Cordy/Doyle fic?

[kudagirl.livejournal.com]

I really preferred Angel with Cordy. It was more of a real relationship to me. They both changed after leaving Sunnydale. Cordy and Wes were the most changed characters on the new show. They had arcs in their growth.

Buffy and Angel was never a real relationship to me. It was a first love for Buffy which was fairy tale to her. She didn't know real love for what it was. How it ended scarred her for the rest of her relationships. Riley and Spike both suffered due to her issues with trust cause by her father leaving and then Angel. Buffy and Spike was a real relationship because they tried to deal with their issues. Angel left because he couldn't deal, but Spike refused to leave even after Buffy had died. Spike was the real deal for Buffy even if she had trouble accepting it. JMHO.

Angel had mixed ideas and feelings about his relationship to Buffy. She was his chance to begin his redemption. She was an innocent to him and he treated her as such as long as he wasn't Angelus. Angel drifted for a very long time and hid away from human contact till Whistler showed him Buffy. Without that Angel might have stayed in alleys eating rats.

Angel and Cordy grew to respect and care about each other before love got in the way. Angel and Cordy had a real adult relationship where they didn't idolize who the other was. The real life pregnancy of Charisma Carpenter changed everything for the show. They had to do rewrites so we never really got to see the direction the writers had wanted to do. Season Four suffered for the rewrites.

Angel with Buffy to me never worked. Angel walked away. He thought he was doing the right thing, but he ended up making it difficult for Buffy emotionally. Angel and Cordy might have worked if real life hadn't caused a change of plans for the show.

[next_to_normal]

The real life pregnancy of Charisma Carpenter changed everything for the show.

I could be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that Cordy was always going to be evil in s4. The pregnancy obviously forced them to make some changes to the plot (she probably wouldn't have given birth to Jasmine, for instance), but I didn't think it changed the trajectory of Cordy's character or her relationship with Angel.

[louise39.livejournal.com]

Never thought this out but...Angel and Cordelia were interesting and fun to watch when they were friends. She was honest, no hero worshiping here [like so many of the Angel group.] Angel and Buffy was kept alive too long and should have been a lovely memory thing not a possibility.

Poor Cordelia was put into so many 'plot' turns that destroyed her character and attraction. Cordelia and Conner - eww unwatchable!

[ldyavalon.livejournal.com]

She was honest, no hero worshiping here [like so many of the Angel group.]

I was remembering the scene where Wesley and Cordelia "explain" Bangel to a recently rescued Fred *giggles*

[riccadonna.livejournal.com]

Will I be stoned if I say that maybe is Angel that acts like a muffler for sexy thoughts? I love Angel as a character, I love Boreanaz as an actor, on BtVS and on AtS and on Bones, he's certainly handsome and charismatic but I never found him sexy.
Capital crime?

[next_to_normal]

LOL, I'd say maybe you were on to something, except I do have sexy thoughts re: Spangel. I'm not a Booth/Brennan shipper on Bones, though (another relationship that I think is way too good of a friendship to ruin), so maybe poor DB is a muffler, and it's just that JM's sex appeal is enough for both of them.

[ellan-vannin.livejournal.com]

This is a really good summary of my own thoughts on the matter, with slight differences in that I WAS invested in their relationship (leaning towards pairing, but not obsessed). I loved where Cordy's character went by the end of s1 into s2 and thought the chemistry between the "core 3" was really excellent, with Gunn acting as a sort of counterbalance.

the writers start throwing up one artificial roadblock after another, trying to come up with ways to keep them apart

I think you nailed it with "artificial roadblock" here. A lot of that stuff was superfluous and time wasting. But then, I thought that Angel & Cordy has such a solid friendship that it would be hard to come up with internal conflict for them. Not impossible, but it would have taken the show in an entirely different direction.

And I'm with you 100% on mid-s4. (I actually have a re-write for that sitting on my hard drive, awaiting tinkering.) By that time, I was SO ready for the show to go in a COMPLETELY different direction!

I guess my problem with Angel on his own show is that I feel like the writers stunted his arc artificially. Every time it looked like they were going to add to his "personal growth chart", he took another spin on the wheel of angst when it should have been a spiral. Either up or down, but not the same thing over and over!

Anyway, good meta!

[next_to_normal]

Yeah, as I was writing this up, I was trying to think of what kind of internal conflict they could have. I could see them having some genuine angst over one or the other not wanting to ruin the friendship. Maybe play on the family dynamic of Angel/Cordy/Connor - NOT the Oedipal shit, but more of Cordy trying to play a parenting role for Connor and him totally not respecting her. Classic stepmother issues. Even trouble with dating in the workplace could've worked - although the Fred/Gunn/Wes thing pretty much covered the inter-office romance issues, I'd much rather have had the issues be Angel/Cordy related and the F/G/W thing to have never happened at all. They could always fall back on the bad guys using their feelings against them - you know, force Angel to do something or they'll kill Cordy, or the other way around... leading, of course, to the inevitable break-up - "As long as we're together, you'll always be a target."

I actually have a re-write for that sitting on my hard drive, awaiting tinkering.

Do it! Do it!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I separate the two things. It was the writers wrongly trying to turn them into Bangel as opposed to the characters organically becoming Bangel-esque. It was like the writers had a Bangel fixation which is why they kept returning to the Bangel story tropes (with a bunch of couples) rather than letting different couples be different, and as a result, they writers had the characters do some very strange contortions to continue in a Bangel vein.

I personally loved Cordy/Angel... in theory. There was a connection between them that was more substantive than any Bangel shared (which was all about fantastical teen angst). But, as soon as the writers decided to actually pursue Cordy/Angel, rather than grow what was there between C/A they set about trying to make them Bangel when it never should have been. The whole kyrumption b.s. (or however it was spelled) was silly and ridiculous and part of some odd tendency in the Whedonverse that requires characters to be 'special' rather than letting characters just be in their own right and that be special enough. The more they tried to make the Cordy/Angel connection fantastical as opposed to their knowing/loving each other -- flaws and all -- the more the story went awry. Add in the problems the writers seemed to have with CC, and C/A, which had such potential, got derailed.

I still consider C/A to be the more true relationship though I also think that Angel maintained a more idealized and romanticized Bangel in his head.

[next_to_normal]

Yeah, I kind of separate them, in that objectively, I can see how they would have worked well as a pairing, and I can understand why people ship them, and I blame all the bad stuff on the writers, not the nature of the relationship. But I still don't have that spark of investment in the couple, and I'm not sure if that's a problem with the writing leaving me cold, or me just not picking up on the romantic chemistry between them that would sell me on the pairing.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

You're right--it was a brokedown remake of Bangel, but only worse. The whole thing just makes me wince in pain for Angel. Think of it--here's this woman he's totally head over heels with, and just as he realizes it, thinks that *she* realizes it, this boring, one-dimensional brokedown remake of Angel swoops in. Only Cordelia can't actually consummate anything because *gasp* she'll *lose* her powers. She'll lose what makes her special (though to Angel, she already was special, and is this ringing any bells). So what does Angel have to do? Find a way to make her specialness full proof so that she can go boink his boring replacement. Talk about sucking donkey balls. And then losing her while trapped at the bottom of the sea, and...yeah, you know the rest.

See, this is why I enjoy Spangel, even though it was totally sexless canon-wise (what we saw of it, anyway), but it was less complicated. It cut through the bullshit. And we didn't have all that angst garbage that we all O.D.ed on anyway from everyone else. Just two guys, not holding anything back. It was more fun that way, I tells ya.

Also, Spike makes an excellent Cordelia replacement. As much as I love her character (before she became damaged goods anyway), Spike did it better--two times. And that is totally unbiased, cause I love her too.

And yes, *way* too long...

[next_to_normal]

Only Cordelia can't actually consummate anything because *gasp* she'll *lose* her powers.

Okay, that right there should have indicated how perfect they were for each other. Two people who can't ever have sex. Who else are they going to date but each other?

I changed my mind. I'm sold.

As much as I love her character (before she became damaged goods anyway), Spike did it better--two times.

Hmm... I don't think Spike actually did all that good a job of replacing Cordelia in Buffy. I mean, he was an excellent character in his own right, and far surpassed the role he was intended to fill, but as a Cordy replacement? Not so much. I think Anya ended up doing that, which is why they had to find other things for Spike to do (which worked out better for everyone).

[silverusagi]

Hmm, that's true, Spike was brought on to both shows after Cordelia left...

I could have liked Angel/Cordy, but I also got annoyed with it. I never had the "it's so sad" feeling, but rather the "thank god it's over feeling." All that "they never got together" stuff got on my nerves. I would have rather that they got together and had it end tragically than all this "will they, won't they, oh not another obstacle!" stuff. I hated the higher being stuff, and Connor--ick. In fact, season 4--ick. I also would have been perfectly happy for Angel and Cordy to remain friends.

I don't think I got invested in any of the ships on Angel, either. I like Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Xander/Anya, even Xander/Cordy, but no pairing on Angel actually got me invested, where I was sad when they split. Though I did hope that Fred would get with Wes, the triangle seemed way overdone.

[next_to_normal]

The first time was intentional... the second time, I think, not so much. :) If anything, he was meant to be a replacement for Connor. Connor was brought in to "revitalize" the show, and when that failed miserably, they tossed him to the curb and brought Spike over to see if he'd do better.

And for the rest of what you said, ITA! :)

[bendy1.livejournal.com]

I loved Wes/Lilah. And Angel/Lilah, Lilah/Lilah would have been cool too. Lilah was ace.

Loved Cordelia but meh, they tried to make her all earth mother - preferred Angel/Cordy back when she was still cool.

There again I quite liked Eve too so I was in the minority thar.

[next_to_normal]

Yeah, Cordelia went drastically downhill. It's such a shame, because she'd just gone drastically uphill, and it didn't last.

You liked Eve? *defriends*

[rahirah]

I was all for Angel/Cordy for awhile, but yeah, the writers messed it up. Not just because they kept introducing artificial roadblocks, but they never really established that there was a romantic relationship to fight for - it was all coy hints and subtext, and after awhile, that gets kind of tiresome.

[next_to_normal]

Yeah, that's a good point. And clearly, the characters didn't even know whether there was a romantic relationship to fight for, since they had to ask each other if they were in love. Like, shouldn't you know that? (Okay, Cordy lost her memory, but Angel has no excuse!)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Interesting meta.

I don't think writers tried to imitate Bangel; my impression is quite the contrary, that they tried to build all subsequent Buffy and Angel ships as an antithesis to BA.

I think that the main problem here is that BtVS is a show about love - hence, internal conflicts and personal issues. While AtS is a show about fighting - hence "artificial roadblocks" that characters have to fight.

[next_to_normal]

Hmm... maybe in theory they tried to make them the antithesis of Bangel, but in practice, I think in all three cases (Riley, Spike, and Cordelia), there were at least as many similarities as there were differences. I sincerely doubt that the staff sat around the writers' room and said, "We need to make the Cordy/Angel romance compelling... let's copy Buffy and Angel!" but I think there was definitely a prevailing mentality that star-crossed=compelling, when that was actually totally wrong for the C/A relationship.

I don't think a show about fighting necessarily precludes internal conflict. I mean, isn't the central conflict of the show Angel's constant struggle against his darker nature? Isn't his main motivation a quest for redemption? That's all internal. I think if they'd tried, they could've found a way to fit internal C/A conflict into the fighting theme.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

As much as I disliked Buffy/Angel, I liked Cordy/Angel even less and that's saying something. I was fine with them being friends (and you're so right about Cordela calling him on his shit-it was one of the few things I liked about her) but when it started to become more, I was all....nuh uh.

Cause, man, it's Cordelia. I cannot imagine one second of time where she'd seriously consider it, because she'd feel that she'd *always* be second-best in his heart.

Pretty much agree with you on the other ships you mentioned. Of course, you left out my favorites-Lindsey/Angel, Angel/Darla, Darla/Lindsey and *G* Angel/Darla/Lindsey.

[next_to_normal]

I never really thought of that, since it seemed pretty clear how much they've both changed over the past few years. Especially after Buffy died and came back and it was all anti-climactic for Angel, it showed how much he was over her.

But now that you mention it, I think that would've been an interesting angle to pursue with their relationship. You can't really help who you crush on, but you can choose not to do anything about it. What if Cordelia had refused to get involved, despite their obvious feelings for each other, because she did think she was second-best to him? And then Angel'd have to prove that she wasn't. That'd create some angst. Beats the higher power thing, at any rate.

As for the other ships... Angel/Lindsey I didn't even consider, because I don't buy that ever happening. I did forget all about Darla, and I liked Angel/Darla, although they're about 90% fucked up, lol. Not really a fan of Lindsey/Darla...

[samsom.livejournal.com]

Here via the Herald. I was going to make dinner but no way was I going to not respond.

*disclaimer* total, raging C/A shipper here. :D

Anyway, I sort of agree with you. I thought they were doing really great with the subtext bewteen the two of them, the growing friendship that was deepening into romantic love over time, until Fred started spouting off about Moira and crap. The C/A ship has never needed to be destined (in fact, I can't think of a ship less destined), never needed to be about two larger than life souls who 'recognize' each other.

Up until then, it was about two adults alone in the world who found each other. The writers could have dealt with problems like Angel's relationship issues, Cordy's desire not to bring Angelus back into the mix, Cordy's visions eating her up inside and her need to bear the visions for sake of being needed, Angel's need to make unilateral decisions for the group without consulting anyone. Connor's origins with Cordelia being cautious and not so accepting of him (given her experience with demonic pregnancies), and Angel's need to believe his son was good above any evidence to the contrary. Anything other than throwing up such superficial obstacles like Groo and amnesia.

*breathes*

And I have to wonder if Cordy and Spike are so much alike in their relationship with Angel, then why is shipping Spike with him so much more accepted than shipping Cordelia with him?

This is a rhetorical question, meant for the writers of the show, because really? Do you need any more evidence that Spike was brought on to be Angel's leading lady than the season 5 dvd box cover?

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I thought they were doing really great with the subtext bewteen the two of them, the growing friendship that was deepening into romantic love over time, until Fred started spouting off about Moira and crap.

Exactly! Now see, I think that's when I began actively disliking the Cordy/Angel thing. It felt unnatural and forced to me.

then why is shipping Spike with him so much more accepted than shipping Cordelia with him?

Keeping in mind that I'm not much on Spangel either...I think perhaps that would be because Angel and Spike had such a long history together and they had love for Buffy in common.

[clevermonikerr.livejournal.com]

I agree with a lot of this. I loved Angel and Cordy's friendship, and would have enjoyed seeing a friendship-turned-lovers plot with them, but I did not enjoy the way it was done. They could have gradually realized their feelings without Fred and Lorne calling it the 'love of champions/Kryumption' when they already had a pretty epic OTP on that show. It could have been a different, quiet kind of love that would have been different.

Also, I don't think B/A was especially teenaged or idealistic, Angel realized he should live in her honor when she died. Buffy knew she couldn't have forever with Angel but was able to take comfort in what she could have after her Mom died, they had their moments of melodrama but I generally don't have that view of the pairing.

[next_to_normal]

Yeah, I think the kyrumtion thing was right around where I started rolling my eyes at the pairing, lol.

The reason I see Bangel as teenaged and idealistic is because they both seem more in love with the idea of each other than actually in love. Especially for Buffy - everyone thinks they're madly in love and they've found their soulmate at seventeen, but it's rarely true. And Angel has put her up on a pedestal because she's pure and good and everything he's not. They don't see each other - they see idealized versions of each other, which they can never live up to. I think most of the time, they bring out the worst in each other, and once they start acting like adults (like the moments you mentioned), it's pretty much the death knell for their relationship.

[wehavedental.livejournal.com]

Very insightful! I enjoyed reading this. Mostly, though, I just wanted to say I adore your icon. <3

Kudos.

[next_to_normal]

Thank you! That's a rockcherry icon. :)

[lothy.livejournal.com]

I found your post through a newsletter; it was interesting to read because I both agreed with you and violently disagreed with you ;)

I'm a Cordy/Angel fan. It's my favourite pairing from the entire Buffyverse, partly because Cordy & Angel are two of my three favourite characters (the other being Anya), and partly because I love relationships that are based in friendship. That's why I don't support pairings like Buffy/Angel (all passion no friendship) or pre-soul Spike/Buffy (where Buffy didn't even like him), but do quite like, for instance, Willow/Tara, where they always seemed to be good friends as well as lovers, and even have a certain fondness for Angel/Nina as two friends with a slight attraction for each other having a realistic and temporary relationship.

So I disagree with you over my opinion of the *concept* of the Angel/Cordelia romance, but I agree with you completely over the *way* that it was written. The constant, constant obstacles in their way - even Buffy & Angel managed to have a while together before having to break up; Cordy and Angel never managed to get a single kiss until seconds before she died. Why do TV people think that a relationship can't be interesting unless it's 99% angst?

When I get my craving for Cordy/Angel, I'm more likely to turn to fanfiction than my DVDs, because really, what episode could I turn to that wouldn't depress me?

I don't think that all TV friendships should turn into relationships, by any means. But I do think that any good relationship should actually involve the two participants being friends... and that's why I'm glad that B/A, as passionate as it was, and as much chemistry as they had, was over before Buffy graduated. It really would never have worked.

[next_to_normal]

But I do think that any good relationship should actually involve the two participants being friends

Hmm... I'd certainly agree with that in real life, but I think for the most part, that doesn't make for particularly interesting TV. A relationship doesn't need to be 99% angst, but it DOES need to have drama, if people are going to continue to tune in every week. If the two people are really good friends, they probably don't have a lot of conflict - or at least, less than a couple that's all about the passion.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Stumbling across this late since someone linked to it somewhere...

But word to all that.

The pairings in AtS drive me up the wall. I liked what Angel/Cordy could have been, but I got so frustrated with the non-execution of it, that I'm left just shrugging and going "Meh". And...um...I violently loathed Gunn/Fred/Wesley, with a special heap of special seething hatred for Fred/Wesley which squicks me to hell and back.

Though I'm attempting to keep an open mind on my rewatch to see if I like them better...heh...(I didn't say I was making a good attempt at it).

[next_to_normal]

Heh, rewatches of AtS have only reaffirmed my feelings about the pairings on that show. In fact, I think Fred/Wesley gets squickier every time I watch it...