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next_to_normalI OWN PROPERTY YOU GUYS!!!!11!!! I am officially a grown-up or something. :)
Anyway, how about a little linkspam?
* SMG talks about her new show, Ringer.
* Hunger Games casting news: Lenny Kravitz is indeed Cinna. Not at all who I would have picked, but the rumors from weeks ago are helping me to ease into it, lol.
* The first set pictures of Jennifer and Liam! I am excite!
And, because I accidentally meta-ed all over![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
catbirdfish's Hunger Games reaction post, I figured I'd recopy it here, because y'all can never get enough of my blathering, am I right? :)
So,laeria asked for my opinion on whether Katniss was more of a Buffy-like or Angel-like hero. I find her to be very similar to Buffy, possibly because I strongly identify with both Buffy and Katniss.
I've actually drawn some explicit parallels between them before - Katniss/Peeta has a similar genderbending element that Buffy/Spike does; Katniss' PTSD is somewhat similar to Buffy's S6 depression arc. They're both skilled at adopting a brave face, no matter how much pain and trauma they suffer through. They both have a tendency to be clueless about their emotions. Heh, and they both have some serious issues with authority.
I think a lot of it is shaped by the roles they're in - Angel is a former Big Bad seeking redemption, whereas Buffy is the reluctant hero forced into the spotlight by circumstance. Katniss is definitely more of the latter.
I mean, that's a huge difference: Angel's a hero by choice. He could walk away at any time. No one said he HAD to go around saving people as penance for all those years he spent killing them. He believes in prophecies and destiny because it gives his life a purpose, but as Spike proves, he's not inherently special. Buffy and Katniss, on the other hand, could probably do with a little less purpose in their lives, lol. They are singular heroes - ostensibly they have a choice, but if they refuse, no one can take their place.
It doesn't make one better than the other. Buffy's not a better hero because she was Chosen. Angel's not more noble because he volunteered. But it has a huge impact on the decisions they make and the responsibilities they have, which means they approach their roles differently.
Angel tends to be more of a "big picture" guy. He realizes that he's in a never-ending struggle against evil, that all he can do is make a tiny dent, and he's often willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Buffy, for all the saving the world that she does, is most often motivated by the desire to protect the people she loves, even (as in S5) if it means the world ends. And that's definitely Katniss. She recognizes the epic scale of what's she doing, but when she really thinks about why she's doing it, it's for Prim, for Peeta, for Gale, for Finnick, for Johanna, for Haymitch, etc. She's almost always operating out of love and compassion, not honor or notoriety or even a sense of justice.
The irony of The Hunger Games is that it's set up to be entirely about Katniss saving Prim. It's a very Buffy reaction - she'd rather die than watch her little sister be killed. Everything she does to spark the rebellion is accidental; she's just trying to stay alive because Prim wants her to come home. And in the end, she loses her sister, the catalyst that put her on this path, her reason for everything she did. Sure, it's for the "greater good" (after all, they did take down the Capitol) but I'm not entirely sure she thinks it's worth it.
The other thing we talked about was the victors' vote on whether or not to hold another Hunger Games. This isn't the first time I've seen people angry and upset with Collins and/or Katniss for voting yes, which is interesting, because there seems to be two opposite interpretations in fandom - first, taking her vote at face value and believing that she's been so beaten down that she doesn't care anymore and/or so bitter and vengeful that she'd agree to perpetuating the horror she's been fighting to stop. And that was my initial reaction as well, but rereading brought me around to the other interpretation: that Katniss decided to assassinate Coin as soon as she proposed the idea of another Hunger Games. She only voted yes so that Coin wouldn't see her as a threat, otherwise Katniss could never get close enough to kill her.
It's subtle - maybe too subtle, considering how many people didn't get it - but I think Collins wanted to leave readers in the dark for the suspense factor, to avoid giving away that Katniss was planning to kill Coin. It is notable to me that, after being in Katniss' head this whole series, we're deliberately left out of her decision-making this time.
But there are two important clues in that scene that point toward premeditation. First, she says she's doing it "for Prim" - and at this point she suspects that Coin is the one who ordered the bombing that killed Prim, not Snow. But even if it was Snow, Katniss isn't vengeful enough to punish innocent children. Over and over, we've seen Katniss' compassion for others: her recognition that the other tributes in the arena are victims, not enemies; her disagreement with trapping the District 2 people in the mountain; her insistence that her prep team weren't bad people, just because they were part of the Games; her disgust at Gale's willingness to cross that line and behave just like the Capitol. She knows the Capitol children are not the real enemy. And she's horrified that all the sacrifice and loss has been for nothing: "All those people I loved, dead, and we are discussing the next Hunger Games in an attempt to avoid wasting life. Nothing has changed. Nothing will ever change now." Why would she vote for that, when it goes against everything she's been fighting for? I think it's pretty reasonable that Katniss would shut down at this point (God knows, I would). But her problem has always been that she can't stop caring about people, so her getting to the point of not caring or actively seeking vengeance rings false to me.
The second clue is that whole bit about Katniss and Haymitch having a moment of understanding, where she says it's time to see how alike they are. She wants him to see past the vote and realize what she's really doing - and he does. I think it's significant that he doesn't say, "I vote yes." He says, I'm with the Mockingjay," implying that he understands Katniss' motivation and he's on her side.
Thematically, we also have the choice between Peeta and Gale to inform Katniss' decision. She's not just choosing between two guys; she's choosing the kind of person she wants to be. They are the two different sides of her. Gale represents the violence, the vengeance, the hatred, but she rejects that. She chooses Peeta, who represents hope and compassion. That's who Katniss is; that's who she's always been, and though she's incredibly damaged, she refuses to let everything she's been through take that away from her. Like Peeta, way back before the first Games, she refuses to let them change her or turn her into a monster.
Anyway, how about a little linkspam?
* SMG talks about her new show, Ringer.
* Hunger Games casting news: Lenny Kravitz is indeed Cinna. Not at all who I would have picked, but the rumors from weeks ago are helping me to ease into it, lol.
* The first set pictures of Jennifer and Liam! I am excite!
And, because I accidentally meta-ed all over
catbirdfish's Hunger Games reaction post, I figured I'd recopy it here, because y'all can never get enough of my blathering, am I right? :)So,
laeria asked for my opinion on whether Katniss was more of a Buffy-like or Angel-like hero. I find her to be very similar to Buffy, possibly because I strongly identify with both Buffy and Katniss.I've actually drawn some explicit parallels between them before - Katniss/Peeta has a similar genderbending element that Buffy/Spike does; Katniss' PTSD is somewhat similar to Buffy's S6 depression arc. They're both skilled at adopting a brave face, no matter how much pain and trauma they suffer through. They both have a tendency to be clueless about their emotions. Heh, and they both have some serious issues with authority.
I think a lot of it is shaped by the roles they're in - Angel is a former Big Bad seeking redemption, whereas Buffy is the reluctant hero forced into the spotlight by circumstance. Katniss is definitely more of the latter.
I mean, that's a huge difference: Angel's a hero by choice. He could walk away at any time. No one said he HAD to go around saving people as penance for all those years he spent killing them. He believes in prophecies and destiny because it gives his life a purpose, but as Spike proves, he's not inherently special. Buffy and Katniss, on the other hand, could probably do with a little less purpose in their lives, lol. They are singular heroes - ostensibly they have a choice, but if they refuse, no one can take their place.
It doesn't make one better than the other. Buffy's not a better hero because she was Chosen. Angel's not more noble because he volunteered. But it has a huge impact on the decisions they make and the responsibilities they have, which means they approach their roles differently.
Angel tends to be more of a "big picture" guy. He realizes that he's in a never-ending struggle against evil, that all he can do is make a tiny dent, and he's often willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Buffy, for all the saving the world that she does, is most often motivated by the desire to protect the people she loves, even (as in S5) if it means the world ends. And that's definitely Katniss. She recognizes the epic scale of what's she doing, but when she really thinks about why she's doing it, it's for Prim, for Peeta, for Gale, for Finnick, for Johanna, for Haymitch, etc. She's almost always operating out of love and compassion, not honor or notoriety or even a sense of justice.
The irony of The Hunger Games is that it's set up to be entirely about Katniss saving Prim. It's a very Buffy reaction - she'd rather die than watch her little sister be killed. Everything she does to spark the rebellion is accidental; she's just trying to stay alive because Prim wants her to come home. And in the end, she loses her sister, the catalyst that put her on this path, her reason for everything she did. Sure, it's for the "greater good" (after all, they did take down the Capitol) but I'm not entirely sure she thinks it's worth it.
The other thing we talked about was the victors' vote on whether or not to hold another Hunger Games. This isn't the first time I've seen people angry and upset with Collins and/or Katniss for voting yes, which is interesting, because there seems to be two opposite interpretations in fandom - first, taking her vote at face value and believing that she's been so beaten down that she doesn't care anymore and/or so bitter and vengeful that she'd agree to perpetuating the horror she's been fighting to stop. And that was my initial reaction as well, but rereading brought me around to the other interpretation: that Katniss decided to assassinate Coin as soon as she proposed the idea of another Hunger Games. She only voted yes so that Coin wouldn't see her as a threat, otherwise Katniss could never get close enough to kill her.
It's subtle - maybe too subtle, considering how many people didn't get it - but I think Collins wanted to leave readers in the dark for the suspense factor, to avoid giving away that Katniss was planning to kill Coin. It is notable to me that, after being in Katniss' head this whole series, we're deliberately left out of her decision-making this time.
But there are two important clues in that scene that point toward premeditation. First, she says she's doing it "for Prim" - and at this point she suspects that Coin is the one who ordered the bombing that killed Prim, not Snow. But even if it was Snow, Katniss isn't vengeful enough to punish innocent children. Over and over, we've seen Katniss' compassion for others: her recognition that the other tributes in the arena are victims, not enemies; her disagreement with trapping the District 2 people in the mountain; her insistence that her prep team weren't bad people, just because they were part of the Games; her disgust at Gale's willingness to cross that line and behave just like the Capitol. She knows the Capitol children are not the real enemy. And she's horrified that all the sacrifice and loss has been for nothing: "All those people I loved, dead, and we are discussing the next Hunger Games in an attempt to avoid wasting life. Nothing has changed. Nothing will ever change now." Why would she vote for that, when it goes against everything she's been fighting for? I think it's pretty reasonable that Katniss would shut down at this point (God knows, I would). But her problem has always been that she can't stop caring about people, so her getting to the point of not caring or actively seeking vengeance rings false to me.
The second clue is that whole bit about Katniss and Haymitch having a moment of understanding, where she says it's time to see how alike they are. She wants him to see past the vote and realize what she's really doing - and he does. I think it's significant that he doesn't say, "I vote yes." He says, I'm with the Mockingjay," implying that he understands Katniss' motivation and he's on her side.
Thematically, we also have the choice between Peeta and Gale to inform Katniss' decision. She's not just choosing between two guys; she's choosing the kind of person she wants to be. They are the two different sides of her. Gale represents the violence, the vengeance, the hatred, but she rejects that. She chooses Peeta, who represents hope and compassion. That's who Katniss is; that's who she's always been, and though she's incredibly damaged, she refuses to let everything she's been through take that away from her. Like Peeta, way back before the first Games, she refuses to let them change her or turn her into a monster.
no subject
Date: May. 27th, 2011 05:42 pm (UTC)I am very excited to see the movie. Katniss is to me a 'reluctant hero'. That instant impulse to put herself in place of Prim, then fight with everything she can in order to return and take care of her family. And like Buffy, Katniss's 'family' grows to include so many.
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Date: Jun. 3rd, 2011 07:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: May. 27th, 2011 06:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: Jun. 3rd, 2011 07:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: May. 27th, 2011 07:04 pm (UTC)I'm going to go read it now. This must be done!
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Date: Jun. 3rd, 2011 07:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: May. 28th, 2011 12:37 am (UTC)Honest to God, I didn't know that there
Honest to God, I didn't know that there <I<>was</i> any other interpretation. I haven't gone around the fandom so I don't know the discussions going on, but I thought it was obvious that's what Katniss was doing. If she had voted no, Coin would've been angry and quite probably would've gone back on her allowing Katniss to kill Snow... which was important because that was the only way she was going to be able to get at Coin with weapon in hand.
Katniss had realized that what Coin was proposing was continuing to do exactly the same thing as what Snow had done. Katniss had resolved that what had to be done was to prevent Coin from doing that. Katniss was going suicide assassin. She would keep the charade going so that she would be allowed to execute Snow and would in turn take the opportunity to take out Coin, because otherwise how was she ever going to get close enough to the new president with a loaded weapon.
I never for a moment considered that it would be interpreted otherwise.
Huh.
I've been running across this with GoT as well. When we read books normally, we sort of read them and have our own interpretation and never think that someone else reads the same thing and comes up with a different interpretaion. Then you run across fandom and realize we read stuff differently. I've been quite surprised by some of the interpretations I've seen lately from people reading Game of Thrones because we're reading the same things and interpreting differently.
Anyway, I <I>always</i> thought Katniss's vote was a ruse. The moment she cast that vote her <I>plan</i> was to kill Coin. At least that's the way that I always read it.
no subject
Date: Jun. 3rd, 2011 07:51 pm (UTC)Apparently not, since I've seen a number of people who thought she honestly voted yes. :-P And I hate being all "you're interrogating the text from the wrong perspective" or whatever, but most people seem to be angry and disappointed with that reading, so I want to give them the better interpretation.
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Date: May. 28th, 2011 12:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jun. 3rd, 2011 07:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: May. 28th, 2011 02:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jun. 3rd, 2011 08:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: May. 28th, 2011 02:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jun. 3rd, 2011 08:17 pm (UTC)1. BtVS parallels!
Katniss = Buffy
Katniss/Prim = Buffy/Dawn
Katniss/Peeta = Buffy/Spike
If you look for the similarities between the characters/relationships, it might make you more invested in them.
2. If you don't finish, you will never get to meet the AWESOMENESS that is Finnick Odair or the fierceness that is Johanna Mason. YOU DO NOT WANT TO MISS THIS, TRUST ME.
3. PTSD!Katniss is VERY relatable for someone with depression. Katniss is my homegirl.
4. I need more people to talk about it with!
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Date: May. 28th, 2011 02:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jun. 3rd, 2011 08:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: May. 28th, 2011 03:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jun. 3rd, 2011 08:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: May. 28th, 2011 11:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jun. 3rd, 2011 08:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: May. 29th, 2011 12:40 am (UTC)I OWN PROPERTY YOU GUYS!!!!11!!! I am officially a grown-up or something. :)
HOUSE-WARMING PARTY!!! When's it gonna be? Am I invited???
no subject
Date: Jun. 3rd, 2011 08:19 pm (UTC)