Comics wank, must be... a day ending in y

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So, angearia, who has once again been a VERY BAD GIRL over at Whedonesque, linked to this thread about the Dark Horse "announcement" that they are maybe acquiring the rights to the Angel series or something. As usual, there is wild speculation about it, all of which is pretty ridiculous, given that we have zero details about what it means or even what actually is happening. All I can really do is roll my eyes at the fact that Dark Horse STILL has not done anything about the unmitigated incompetence that is their PR department.

However, the comments on that thread brought up something I thought was interesting. God only knows what it has to do with licensing, but there was discussion about whether or not Season 8 should have included some backstory about Connor and the other Angel characters.

Some people said that such a conversation has no place in S8, since most of the Buffy characters don't even know who Angel's people are anymore, and there wasn't really an opportune time for Angel to explain to Buffy exactly how he acquired a son, nor would it be in his best interest to do so, if he wants Buffy to trust him. Not to mention the fact that there likely would be a licensing issue preventing them from mentioning any Angel character who did not originate on Buffy, so there's a good possibility they couldn't mention Connor even if they wanted to.

Others argued that, without that information, it is impossible to understand Angel's character, since in Angel we were led to believe that Connor was the most important person in the world to Angel, and it's hard to believe that he would willingly destroy a world that has his friends and especially his son still in it.

I agree with both of those things.

Setting aside the fact that S8 isn't over, and we could yet get such an explanation, I think this illustrates exactly why Angel as Twilight was a bad storytelling decision. Much like Willow's appearance in Angel S4 and Angel's appearance in Buffy S7, there really isn't space to fill in everything that's been happening to the character in the other series. But that doesn't negate the fact that these characters do have entire lives going on elsewhere, and those things affect them. A good writer doesn't just ignore character development because it doesn't fit into the story he wants to tell.

IMO, if they can't figure out how to portray a crossover character in a way that is both in character and does not require elaborate backstory explanations that bog down the story, then they shouldn't use that character. Period. Come up with a different story that's more workable.

Incidentally, I think the crossovers worked a lot better early on, before too many changes put the two series on increasingly divergent paths. It was easier to provide exposition when the characters mostly knew each other and not much had happened since they'd last seen each other. Once both series brought in new characters and major plot developments, the necessary exposition becomes far too unwieldy, so the choice is either abandon the idea of crossovers or ignore important developments because you can't explain them properly - or stick to characters (like Faith) whose backstory doesn't require a lot of explanation.

Comments

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I agree with both of those things.

Yeah. Pretty much. It would take more time and space than Season 8 can allow/afford to explain all of that. On the other hand Angel is incomprehensible without it. Catch-22. Plus there's the part where revealing all of that would also reveal how very little Buffy knows of Angel any more which would be a downer given their great 'epic' universe-fated 'wuv' that's worth the destruction of lives and worlds. [insert non-existent eyerolling icon here]

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Plus there's the part where revealing all of that would also reveal how very little Buffy knows of Angel any more which would be a downer given their great 'epic' universe-fated 'wuv' that's worth the destruction of lives and worlds.

Yeah, I think that's also part of it - the Bangel relationship doesn't really fit the story Joss wanted to tell, so they just ignored that bit. Much like Willow being insecure about using magic and afraid of going dark again didn't fit the story they wanted to tell in Angel S4, so we end up with Willow the super-witch instead.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Or that Angel's entire world had imploded with losing Connor and Cordy essentially dying when he made the trip to Sunnydale in "End of Days."

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That one I never understood, because it's not like they couldn't have made it make sense. I mean, obviously, you can't do a "Willow restores Angel's soul and has an epic magic battle with Evil Cordy" episode without Willow being confident about her magic, so there's an inherent conflict there.

But how hard would it have been to write Angel as pretty depressed, and when Buffy asks what's wrong, he just says he doesn't want to talk about it? He can still get jealous of Spike, but be less flirty about it, you know? NOT THAT HARD.

[rahirah]

You know, they could have used Willow's AtS stint as the reason she got her confidence back and became Super Witch in time fro "Chosen." Instead of it being Kennedy's magic tongue stud...

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Do not doubt the power of the tongue stud!

In fact, I would not be surprised if there was a missing panel in issue #33 where Angel stuck out his tongue and showed Buffy his new piercing, and THAT'S what made her forgive him for being Twilight and immediately jump his bones.

[rahirah]

That would explain a lot. Or, well, no it wouldn't, but people would be so busy arguing over what kind of piercing it was, or if it implied other piercings elsewhere, they'd forget all about the inconsistencies!

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

We shall not speak of End of Days, the biggest WTF crossover of crappy characterization and unnecessary cameos.

[agnes-bean.livejournal.com]

Much like Willow being insecure about using magic and afraid of going dark again didn't fit the story they wanted to tell in Angel S4, so we end up with Willow the super-witch instead.

Random true fact story: When I recently watched Angel for the first time, I literally though I'd gotten confused about how the seasons lined up during this episode, because I thought, "there is no way this is post-S6 Willow." I mean, she wasn't even a LITTLE hesitant. Like, what?

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Hahaha! I can totally see that happening.

[mikeda.livejournal.com]

I actually think that Willow's appearance in S7 AtS IS in character because of several reinforcing factors:

1) She made the decision to cast the spell when she decided to go to L.A. Removes a lot of the angst factor.
2) She realizes that the Fang Gang must be on very thin ice morale-wise. Thus the last thing they need is Angsty Willow.
3) She's on familiar ground. As she notes, the reensouling spell was the first major spell she ever cast.
4) Getting away from the Hellmouth AND the personal attention of the First probably helps to some extent.
5) Willow often acts more confident when Buffy isn't around. Especially when she's doing something to help Buffy.

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I can see her agreeing to do the reensouling spell, but she didn't know she'd have to do the Delothrian's Arrow spell to break the jar, and she definitely didn't know she'd get into a battle of wills with Evil Cordy. That's significantly more magic - and riskier magic - than she bargained for, yet she's totally not worried. She actually goes black-eyed during it and doesn't even show a bit of concern. That seems bizarre.

[mikeda.livejournal.com]

By the time the black-eyed thing occurs (and even the Delothrian's arrow part) she's already into problem-solving mode. Delothrian's arrow and the battle of wills are just something she needs to do in order to accomplish what she agreed to do. It's part Willow getting absorbed in a problem, part not wanting to show any nervousness that she does feel.

[rahirah]

Honestly, I think that S8 would have been infinitely better if we'd known who Twilight was early on. The suspense would have been in characters like Giles trying to find out if there was any way to prevent the prophecy, and Buffy torn between her own mission with the Slayers and the desire for the paradise Twangel promised. While on the other side we could have had Angel convinced he was doing the right thing, and trying to minimize losses as he played all these factions against one another. That could have been awesome.

Perhaps licensing concerns would have prevented that, but I find it hard to imagine that if Joss had let the IDW people in on it from the beginning, they wouldn't have wanted to play ball in order to get the Joss stamp of approval.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

But that would have taken planning and stuff! (Which doesn't seem to be the strong suit of anyone involved.)

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Well, it certainly couldn't have been any worse. :) I do think a big problem was that they built up Twilight as the Big Bad, which makes it really hard to reverse it in the span of three issues and convince people Angel was actually trying to do the right thing.

[agnes-bean.livejournal.com]

I haven't actually been reading the comics, but I've been keeping up enough to know that I agree with you (plus, I agree in general based on the TV-canon crossovers).

The Connor thing is especially important. Like, okay, ignore the fact that Angel has all these other friends and earthly attachments. That's super lame, and bad characterization, obviously, but I could almost live with it. But he has a fucking son. You just...can't ignore that. Parenthood means a big shift in priorities for most people, and Angel is definitely one of them. Does he mention that he has a child at ALL in the comics? Even if not by name? If not...yeah. If it is impossible to work the plot you want with the characters you have, you need to either come up with new characters, or a new plot.

This was my biggest problem with Angel's appearance in S7, too (since yo mentioned it...) If it had just been Cordy's coma Angel was dealing with when he showed up, I could have bought it better. Clearly, that scene was the writers trying to remind us that Buffy and Angel have this epic doomed love. Which, yeah, I'm not a huge fan of, but if Buffy can leave that scene and go back to her relationship with Spike, I would be fine thinking Angel could leave it and go back to morning Cordy. I do think part of Buffy and Angel will always love each other/love the relationship they had, so in a Connor-free AU, I could theoretically get behind that scene as a general concept, even if the tone was annoying for me.

But as it is...no. Angel's love life should NOT have been the foremost thing on his mind. As you say, if he'd shown up all depressed, and acted jealous more out of force of habit than anything else, that I could have bought. But, I'm sorry. He just gave up his son. There is no way that he cares as much about is potential future with Buffy as he seemed to, at least not at that moment. I can't believe he'd have the mental energy. I can try to fanwank it as an emotional defensive mechanism, but that doesn't sit well with me at all, given that Angel is normally broody mcbroody face.

In conclusion, word. Yes, these shows were in the same verse, but it doesn't mean you can cross them over willy-nilly, without respect for what happened to the characters in-between crossovers. It's insulting to the fans (I mean, heck, I think the S7 Angel-Buffy reunion would have been much MORE interesting if it had had an in-character Angel -- and it probably would have made me more inclined to watch Angel sooner, since it would have hinted that there was actual development going on).

(And, hell, it's not like it's impossible to do an okay crossover. I think the Doctor Who/Torchwood crossovers -- both Jack on Doctor Who and Martha on Torchwood -- are decently respectful to the respective characters and their growth. At least they didn't make me go "WTF am I watching, and what happened to the character I knew?").

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Does he mention that he has a child at ALL in the comics? Even if not by name?

Nope, not at all. Of course, any mention of it would require, at the very least, an explanation of how a vampire could have a baby in the first place (and presumably with whom, and I'm sure THAT would go over well, lol). And I can definitely see how that would stop the narrative in its tracks, since everyone (except Willow and Faith) would be like, "WHAT?"

He just gave up his son. There is no way that he cares as much about is potential future with Buffy as he seemed to, at least not at that moment. I can't believe he'd have the mental energy. I can try to fanwank it as an emotional defensive mechanism, but that doesn't sit well with me at all, given that Angel is normally broody mcbroody face.

Word.

Yes, these shows were in the same verse

Honestly, at this point, I hesitate to say even that much. They started in the same verse, sure, but how can you possibly explain the sun being blacked out in Los Angeles and no one in Sunnydale noticing? How can Jasmine's thing be happening all over the world and not affect anyone in Sunnydale? Why would the First Evil resurface and have no interest in Angel, when the last time it showed up ("Amends") it was all about Angel? How can Hollywood (and by extension, the world) be gaga over Harmony and vampires when everyone in Los Angeles has the memories of spending months in Hell?

But that is a whole different rant, lol.

I think the Doctor Who/Torchwood crossovers -- both Jack on Doctor Who and Martha on Torchwood -- are decently respectful to the respective characters and their growth. At least they didn't make me go "WTF am I watching, and what happened to the character I knew?"

Hahaha, I have to admit, it cracks me up that you used this as your example, because when I started watching Torchwood, one of my first complaints was that Jack was completely different from when he was on Doctor Who. His second Who appearance did account for his Torchwood development, but that first season was a major WTF adjustment for me.

[agnes-bean.livejournal.com]

Honestly, at this point, I hesitate to say even that much.

Lol, all of your points are completely fair. I really just kind of close my eyes and handwave all of that stuff because, of course, you're right (and I was really bothered by the Jasmine plot-line for that reason). But at the same time, they can't really NOT be the same verse, since there is crossover, and ugh. Maybe Angel!LA is actually a slightly different dimension, and all the highways in are portals that anyone can travel through, and nobody notices?

I have to admit, it cracks me up that you used this as your example, because when I started watching Torchwood, one of my first complaints was that Jack was completely different from when he was on Doctor Who.

At least they have an in-universe explanation for that, though -- his being burned by the Doctor, and then the hundred or so years he lived before Torchwood started. Definitely an adjustment, but as a viewer I feel like, I at least have a sense of WHY he acts so differently. Whereas with the Buffy/Angel crossovers, I'm left going what? But...what? YMMV, of course, but at least Doctor Who/Torchwood TRIES.

That's what was really disappointing for me watching Angel and trying to reconcile it with Buffy -- there was so clearly no effort put into making them consistent. Like, with the Willow thing, even a throw away line, or hell, Willow acting twitchy about it -- ANYTHING really -- would have made me feel better. It wouldn't have made Willow being an uber-witch suddenly in-character, but it at least would have made me feel like the writers had put some thought into the matter.

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Here's my theory: at some point, all the magic and altering of realities broke the universe into two different dimensions - both dimensions have all the same people, but events do not quite line up. Thus, when we're watching Buffy, we're watching one version of events, in which the Angel characters exist, but events did not happen exactly as we saw on Angel.

When we watch Angel, we're watching a different version of events, in which the Buffy characters exist, but again, not quite as we saw them on Buffy.

Definitely an adjustment, but as a viewer I feel like, I at least have a sense of WHY he acts so differently.

True. I think my reaction had more to do with the fact that I didn't like New Jack, and missed the one I loved on Who, but it didn't help that it took quite a while to figure out why he's so different.

[agnes-bean.livejournal.com]

I like your theory! It makes sense, or at least more sense than any other kind of fanwanking I can think of...

True. I think my reaction had more to do with the fact that I didn't like New Jack, and missed the one I loved on Who, but it didn't help that it took quite a while to figure out why he's so different.

That totally makes sense. I didn't want Torchwood until after I'd watched Doctor Who S1-4, and that didn't happen until last summer, so I had a sense of how different Jack was going in, both from his later Who appearances, and from spoilers, so I'm not surprised I didn't have as strong a reaction to the difference.

Other than that initial change, though, I definitely think Who-verse does a decent job with crossovers -- especially taking into account the different series tones (which -- sure, Angel is supposed to be darker than Buffy, but it is nothing compared to the total different aims of Doctor Who and Torchwood, not to mention Sarah Jane).

I can't think of any other series (that I've watched) that have crossovers, though I feel like there must be some...

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I can't think of any other series (that I've watched) that have crossovers, though I feel like there must be some...

I can't, either. It seems to happen more often these days in legal/cop/CSI dramas, you know? Solving a case that requires outside help. But I don't watch any of those shows...

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

I wish I could contribute more than just nodding my head and going 'word' to everything you said here and in the comments. I always joke that whenever Angel shows up in Buffy's world, he is Angelbot, because any characterization and development he had on his own shows just goes right out the window. It's like he is back to BTVS S3 Angel.

And I'm so with you on the whole WTFery of Willow in Angel S4. I mean, what? WHAT?!

I just still cannot for the life of me understand HOW this writers, being parents themselves, can completely negate Angel's development in regards to Connor. That he would willingly want the world and his own son destroyed. And for what?

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IDEK!!! Maybe this is all part of Joss' daddy issues. Angel was the only character left who was a decent father, so he's gotta go destroying the world without regard for his son in order to keep in line with Joss' ideas about fathers.

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

And once again, Joss allows his issues to interfere with good characterization. Pretty darn sad. Pretty. darn. sad.

[mikeda.livejournal.com]

I think all the explanation needed was in Angel's vision near the end of Angel: After the Fall.

Angel in an apocalyptic scene. Leading an army of demons with dead bodies all around.

His future. His worst nightmare.

He goes looking for an alternative and he finds Twilight. Or it finds him. And he WANTS to believe he's doing the right thing because he doesn't want his vision to happen.

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

So he would rather subject his son to a world where demons come flowing in, into basically what is Hell on Earth AGAIN just so that HE can have a perfect world with Buffy? It still doesn't make any sense. I mean, he mindwiped all his friends, his family, to save his son. I can't come up with any explanation where he would allow Connor to die fighting on Earth, die an unwinable battle, just because he has a vision that may or may not come true. With the knowledge of what will happen in the future thanks to the vision, he has the ability to stop it. Not to just give up and go in search of some super-poon that will end the universe as we know it.

He seems to pretty clearly realize that he and Buffy will be the only ones in Twilight and that everyone else will be left on Earth to battle and die. I just can't see him going 'oh yeah, I will totally let my son die down there cause me and Buffy gots the perfect place. YAY! '

[mikeda.livejournal.com]

End the universe as we know it to create a new perfect universe. I can easily see Angel wanting to do this.

Rfcrpvnyyl vs ur qbrfa'g frr nal orggre nygreangvirf.

[mikeda.livejournal.com]

Should probably mention that the odd-looking text is an rot-13 spoiler for the Riley one-shot.

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That still doesn't explain his reaction in #35. Even if he thought he was saving the world with Twilight, by #35, it is obvious that they are in fact destroying it. Buffy is upset and refuses to abandon her friends and family. Angel... doesn't seem to care, and only agrees to help because Buffy insists on going back.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

It seemed to me more like Angel was in denial, because he'd devoted the last year of his life to this Twilight scheme and would rather turn his back on the downside of it (literally) than admit he was wrong. But in the face of Buffy's adamant insistence on doing what she thinks is right, Angel ruefully reaches the realisation that in fact, he's been a bit of a plonker, and decides to do it her way after all.

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I don't see how that makes it better. The downside of it is that everybody dies. He's willing to turn his back on his son rather than admit he was wrong. We're talking about the guy who was willing to change the entire world in order to save his son, and now he'd turn around and do this? I just don't see it.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I don't think Angel was expecting the apocalypse - he was just expecting life to go on as normal in the old world. And yes, everybody dies. It's a side-effect of being mortal (unless you're a vampire).

When he saw what was going on, his initial reaction was shock; his second reaction was to try and convince himself (and her) that it was just business as usual. "They can handle this, Buffy. It's no different than when you died. They'll survive. They always do."

And really, you know, you're making the same argument to me that Buffy was making to him in the pages of the comic. :-) Angel was being all philosophical and detached - easy to do when you're immortal and have already outlived most of the people you've ever known and loved - but I'm certain that had Buffy had known about Connor and IDW had given her their permission, she'd be demanding to know how Angel could turn his back on him a well. The moral of the whole scene is about whether loyalty to family should come above loyalty to an abstract cause, even if that cause is all about making a better world.

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I don't think Angel was expecting the apocalypse - he was just expecting life to go on as normal in the old world.

Well, I think he was deluding himself if he thought that he and Buffy could live in paradise without there being a price to pay. And I think trying to convince himself that it's business as usual is equally delusional. And when it's Connor's life at stake, I don't see Angel being that careless, even to salve his own conscience.

And really, you know, you're making the same argument to me that Buffy was making to him in the pages of the comic.

Well, keep in mind here that I'm not arguing whether it's morally right or wrong. I'm saying it's OOC for Angel to do it, not because it's wrong (since Angel's got plenty of experience doing that) but because I can't believe he wouldn't put Connor first.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I think he was deluding himself

Yes, I agree. I think that's pretty much the plot for Season 8 which Joss came up with. :-)

I do disagree that it's out of character for Angel, though I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on that one. In my eyes, Angel always needs a Whistler or a Buffy or a Doyle or a Cordelia to kick him into getting involved actively with people, even people he cares about. His natural instinct is always to fade away into the shadows and manipulate from a distance. He did it with Buffy in Season 1, he did it with Connor at the end of Ats Season 4.

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I guess I don't see how it's getting actively involved with people. I mean, all he has to do is NOT be Twilight. Stop what he's doing. He doesn't even have to actively go save Connor (since Connor's not allowed to show up, lol). He just has to stop the destruction of the world that will get Connor killed.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

That he would willingly want the world and his own son destroyed.

Did he want that? The Twilight prophecy as Angel understood it wasn't about destroying the world, it was about building a whole shiny brand new world that would be perfect. What parent wouldn't want that for their child? When he saw with his own eyes the demons invading the world he'd left behind, he was shocked and surprised: "I - I didn't think it would be... We can help them. We can fix it. We can fix everything, Buffy."

Remember also that Angel's greatest gift to Connor, in his eyes, was to set him up with a new family and life of his own, turn and walk away forever. It's an extreme version of letting the birds fly the nest, complicated by the fact that Connor will grow old and die and Angel will remain in his mid-twenties forever. Sure, Angel didn't want to do it, and was happy when Connor came back into his life - but Angel's the kind of guy who'll do what he thinks is right regardless of how much it costs him. (Or if anything, the higher the price he personally has to pay, the more willing he'll be to do it. 247 years of stored-up guilt will do that to you.)

[mikeda.livejournal.com]

One additional note is that (rot-13 spoilers for the Riley one-shot):

Natry oryvrirf, naq unf tbbq ernfba gb qb fb, gung nyy gur nygreangvirf gb Gjvyvtug ner rira jbefr.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Yanno, I totally 100% agree with this, and I don't even really care about Angel, the character. However, I thought about my friends, and how we deal with years of separation, and how sometimes there is enough of a bond, that just picking up the phone every so often does the trick. Would it be so hard to have a scene showing Buffy hanging up the phone and saying, "Wow. I thought I had a lot going on." We wouldn't need a ton of exposition, and it would be sort like all those summers, where we don't know specifically what happened, but we can safely assume that the characters do. It's even better, because if we want the backstory, we don't have to write it ourselves, but can just skip over to the DVD collection.

As it stands, we have to assume that nobody knows anything, and it's just stupid.

[next_to_normal]

Would it be so hard to have a scene showing Buffy hanging up the phone and saying, "Wow. I thought I had a lot going on."

Yeah, really. And as was mentioned above, the fact that they didn't do this only serves to emphasize how detached Buffy and Angel are now, how little they understand each other, which makes the Twuffy coupling so much more bizarre.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Sounds to me like the way they're planning on doing season 9 will be much better for this kind of story. Multiple concurrent arcs focussing on different characters rather than one grand linear four-year storyline. You could have Twilight showing up in Buffy's comic being cryptic and creepy, and at the same time have an 'Angel' comic that has much more space to get into his side of the story. You could even show the same scenes from both points of view, with all sorts of dramatic irony.

[next_to_normal]

That might've been cool if they'd done it for S8. Unfortunately, the damage is already done.

[harsens-rob.livejournal.com]

I was going to just link/recommend your post... but then I sort of got stuck in a rant. So, I ranted.

ABOUT JOSS?!

Yes. I actually threw a rant about the creator of Buffy and Angel for not respecting licensing. My world has truly done a flippity-floppity sort of thing.

http://harsens-rob.livejournal.com/200494.html

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Hee! Always happy to inspire a rant (er, as long as it's not directed at me, obviously!).

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

The title of your post made me LOL, and because that made my day just a little bit brighter, I thank you even if the comic wanksplosion makes me sad.

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Haha, glad I could make you smile. God knows we need it...