Right, but isn't that largely covered by "tone, timing and context"? When you say again "being funny", that's not a quantifiable state. There's an innate understanding of how to undercut or overemphasize or satirize--and it's about knowing where to push, how much, and when. I think it is an artform, but in all art there's technique that we can define.
I believe my response to the initial argument that B&R shouldn't be criticized because it's not trying to be serious was my going "um, I don't even know how to respond to that because B&R is awful for so many more reasons than it not being serious, including the actors and the awfulness of AWFUL" or something. Actually, I think the comparison has been a bit lost here.
To refocus, B&R fubars the balance of tone. And just as the actors suck it, so does Jeanty's art in Twilight in convincing emotion. As does the writing which fubars the tone. Where as when the writing is strong enough (like Whedon, Goddard, Vaughan or Espenson on a good day) that the bothersome tone of the art doesn't impeded feeling the characters (when Jeanty's on a good day)--but when both fail, when both ring a bit hollow, then the house of cards falls.
B&R and Twilight are both examples of stories that try and pretty much fail abysmally. And I think it all comes back to tone and failing to understand how to make the source material funny and when to make the source material serious. In understanding the balance, and producing the balance relies on good execution.
Anyways, since we're on the subject of humor, I was thinking about how BtVS is mostly wordplay humor and character humor and poking fun at itself. Like: "Out. For. A. Walk... Bitch." is character humor for Spike because it's undercut by him hopelessly stalking her, then he goes on to insult her hair--it's totally driven by his character and how he's putting on a show. Or "I'm a bloodsucking fiend, just look at my outfit!" is funny for the line itself, but it's even more funny because it's Willow saying it and Willow puts so much stock in what she's wearing and how others perceive her. She thinks wearing the leather is enough, by God, and all those vampires should, too.
Or Xander and Harmony's slapfight which is humor on two levels--first that it's Xander and Harmony.. SLAPFIGHTING. Because yes, that is how Harmony would fight, and why yes, that is how Xander would get drawn into a fight with Harmony because inside he still has his petty little Boyness. And the epic music and slow motion take it even further, that this is the most epic fight of epicness ever in a show that has actual epic fight scenes. So it's poking fun at itself by taking something too seriously that isn't serious at all. And it's brilliant. (Well, I imagine some people wouldn't find it funny. Like stormwreath who doesn't like OTT humor. But he's strange and British and also didn't like the rocket launcher scene in Himand I hope you aren't about to say you didn't like it either otherwise I might have to rethink my stance on you being the funniest person on my flist.)
Which I'm gonna bring back around to say that I think the humor pandered to in Twilight isn't really Buffyverse humor. Where the humor derives from the characters acting ridiculously because they have silly, silly egos which then collide with their environment. Xander geeking out over Buffy's superpowers kinda, sorta works, but it goes on too long. And after that point, I can't remember an example of the humor genuinely embracing its origin in characterization. The jokes are just jokes, they're not that funny, they're poorly timed so that the jokes deflate the drama, and they don't tell us anything about the characters. So yeah.
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carisma_sensei
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Date: Jul. 14th, 2010 02:47 pm (UTC)I believe my response to the initial argument that B&R shouldn't be criticized because it's not trying to be serious was my going "um, I don't even know how to respond to that because B&R is awful for so many more reasons than it not being serious, including the actors and the awfulness of AWFUL" or something. Actually, I think the comparison has been a bit lost here.
To refocus, B&R fubars the balance of tone. And just as the actors suck it, so does Jeanty's art in Twilight in convincing emotion. As does the writing which fubars the tone. Where as when the writing is strong enough (like Whedon, Goddard, Vaughan or Espenson on a good day) that the bothersome tone of the art doesn't impeded feeling the characters (when Jeanty's on a good day)--but when both fail, when both ring a bit hollow, then the house of cards falls.
B&R and Twilight are both examples of stories that try and pretty much fail abysmally. And I think it all comes back to tone and failing to understand how to make the source material funny and when to make the source material serious. In understanding the balance, and producing the balance relies on good execution.
Anyways, since we're on the subject of humor, I was thinking about how BtVS is mostly wordplay humor and character humor and poking fun at itself. Like: "Out. For. A. Walk... Bitch." is character humor for Spike because it's undercut by him hopelessly stalking her, then he goes on to insult her hair--it's totally driven by his character and how he's putting on a show. Or "I'm a bloodsucking fiend, just look at my outfit!" is funny for the line itself, but it's even more funny because it's Willow saying it and Willow puts so much stock in what she's wearing and how others perceive her. She thinks wearing the leather is enough, by God, and all those vampires should, too.
Or Xander and Harmony's slapfight which is humor on two levels--first that it's Xander and Harmony.. SLAPFIGHTING. Because yes, that is how Harmony would fight, and why yes, that is how Xander would get drawn into a fight with Harmony because inside he still has his petty little Boyness. And the epic music and slow motion take it even further, that this is the most epic fight of epicness ever in a show that has actual epic fight scenes. So it's poking fun at itself by taking something too seriously that isn't serious at all. And it's brilliant. (Well, I imagine some people wouldn't find it funny. Like
and I hope you aren't about to say you didn't like it either otherwise I might have to rethink my stance on you being the funniest person on my flist.)Which I'm gonna bring back around to say that I think the humor pandered to in Twilight isn't really Buffyverse humor. Where the humor derives from the characters acting ridiculously because they have silly, silly egos which then collide with their environment. Xander geeking out over Buffy's superpowers kinda, sorta works, but it goes on too long. And after that point, I can't remember an example of the humor genuinely embracing its origin in characterization. The jokes are just jokes, they're not that funny, they're poorly timed so that the jokes deflate the drama, and they don't tell us anything about the characters. So yeah.