Spike... again
May. 7th, 2009 11:37 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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gabrielleabelle made a post about Spike in AtS S5, and how she thought it would have been better if he'd never been brought back. I think we overwhelmed her with the response, lol, and since I am incapable of saying anything with brevity, I thought it best to post my thoughts in my own LJ. You might want to read her post first, as I address several specific points she made; however, I think these points are pretty universal for anyone who holds that position. Also note that, since this was initially intended to be a comment on her post, I make reference to and quote comments on her post.
Spike meets success as being more than a monster and saves the world. And that is the perfect ending for him.
Is it? I think if you're looking at only BtVS, there is definitely a character arc that ends at "Chosen." It's the big finale, so it's supposed to feel like the end. Spike has sought redemption and become a champion. But is it really the pinnacle of all Spike can achieve? He doesn't just save the world - he has to sacrifice himself to do it, and that's an important point. He's a hero, sure, but he only has to prove it once.
I see it as being much like Buffy's death in "The Gift." Sure, the noble, heroic, sacrificial death is a great gesture, but it's also the easy way out. It's a lot harder to live as a hero than to die as one. Buffy says so herself, right before she takes the plunge. Or just ask Angel, who has struggled (and sometimes failed) to be a hero for the last four seasons. For me, Spike's arc isn't truly complete until he's lived as a hero, and he doesn't get a chance to do that until AtS. That doesn't mean I don't think the writers could've done it better, but I'd rather they try - and maybe they failed, but they gave Spike some brilliant moments - than not giving Spike a chance at all. Otherwise, it feels like Spike had so much potential to be a hero, but never really got the chance to be one for more than moment.
In AtS S5, Spike reverts back to a slightly more moral BtVS S4 version of himself.
I disagree. While AtS S5 Spike certainly bears some resemblance to that era Spike, I don't see it as a regression. I see it as a composite. BtVS S7 Spike was wonderful in a lot of ways, but he wasn't fully Spike. Asshipperx said, "Spike had always had a love of life, even though he was dead and, quite frankly, Season 7 had kicked that life out of him." He was very much changed by the soul, and for much of the season, he had difficulty integrating the soul with who he had been before. A Spike that needs to be goaded into killing demons is no Spike I know. :) On AtS, I see him fitting the pieces together, managing to regain his old attitude and snark (which, un-William as it is, is a part of Spike now, and he's incomplete without it) while still living within the bounds of the soul.
I also see him moving beyond the person he was for pretty much all of BtVS. His entire life, he's never been independent. He went right from his mother's arms to Drusilla's, and then he became Buffy's willing slave. Everyone loves to refer to Spike as love's bitch, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. I would be horrified by a woman who defined herself so thoroughly by the men she dated, so why is it okay when it's Spike? Yes, he has done incredible things for love, but I want to see him move beyond that. I want to see him do incredible things because it's his choice, not because it'll make a girl happy. His death in "Chosen" is great, but it's just a moment, and when it comes down to it, I do agree withsnickfic: "I'd much rather watch him live with his past than die for it." AtS gives him a chance to live with it every day, not just make one grand gesture and go up in flame.
A lot of people say that he never really gained independence, that he simply traded Buffy's mission for Angel's. But that's not totally true. There's no need to repeat everything whenelisi has written a brilliant meta about it, so I'll just summarize: Essentially, Spike has been doing his own thing for much of the season. He wasn't on board with "Evil Incorporated," he was helping the helpless on his own terms - until Fred died. To quote:
Spike has never really been a leader on the side of good. He's always willing to stand behind someone, be it Buffy or Angel or even fake!Doyle, and follow their lead. But the important difference in AtS is that he chooses sides (first rejecting W&H, and then joining Angel's fight) because he wants to, because he has decided it's the right thing to do.
Spike gets used often to forward Angel's development. Which...well...it is Angel's show. Still, I yawn in Angel's general direction so I don't care so much about using Spike in that fashion. I wanted to see Spike develop on his own.
The only solution there is for Spike to have his own show, because that's the only way his character development is going to be front and center. I think we'd all have loved for that to happen, but it's not realistic to expect that from AtS. He was lucky that he managed to have such prominent development on Buffy, but still - it was her show, and his development was all tied to her. If he hadn't become her love interest, we would never have seen the kind of development we did. (In fact, one of the reasons Spike fell in love with her in the first place was because they'd run out of things to do with the character.)
That doesn't mean he doesn't develop at all, and again I'd refer you toelisi's meta on S5.
And I still can't buy the fact that Spike didn't even contact Buffy about his return.
I can, easily. And it goes back to what2maggie2 said: "Spike was *certain* that Buffy did not and never would love him and that he viewed his death in the hellmouth as a letting go of her." I know plenty of people don't believe that, and as was pointed out in earlier discussions, that makes AtS S5 a lot harder to accept. I'm not often one to say you should or shouldn't believe something, because we all have our interpretations, but IMO it's a lot easier to believe he didn't think she loved him and let AtS S5 fall into line than it is to interpret "No, you don't" as "I know you do" and see virtually all of AtS S5 as OOC. There are mental backflips there I just don't understand.
He can't tell her he's alive because he doesn't know how to tell her without all the drama of asking her to make a decision about whether she loves him or not (especially since he thinks he knows the answer to that, and he doesn't want to be rejected again). He doesn't even need to ask the question; his very existence forces her to confront her feelings for him. Does she love him and want to be with him, or can she continue to live her life, knowing he's alive and in LA, and be okay with being apart? He doesn't want to put her in that position, and he certainly doesn't want her to feel obligated to be with him now just because she said something (he thinks) she didn't mean when she thought he was dying. He absolved her of her obligation to him in the Hellmouth, and he's okay with loving her unrequitedly.
It's not a decision that he makes rashly. Maybe if he hadn't had time to think about it, he'd have rushed off to Buffy. And maybe he would've been better off, because she'd have convinced him she loved him and they'd be happy. But he can't rush off right away, so he does have time to think, and he realizes it's probably not worth the risk of getting rejected again.
It's so very clearly a case of "Let's have Angel and Spike compete to get to Buffy!" which is the fan-dream.
I have to agree withms_scarletibis and others here - if you think TGIQ was all about getting Buffy, you're not paying attention. It's not about Buffy at all. It's about Angel and Spike's relationship with each other, and their silly rivalry with the Immortal. There's a reason they have those flashbacks to 1890 in this episode - because it shows that it doesn't really matter what it is the Immortal has taken from them, all that matters is that he took it, and damned if Angel and Spike will let that happen again.
And when it comes to Buffy, I'm sure all that thinking Spike did isn't far from his mind. He's still wondering whether it's worth telling her he's alive. And I'm sure it seems easier to show up in Rome on business and "conveniently" run into Buffy and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm not dead," than it would be for him to actively reach out and put his heart on the line. The irony, though, is that Spike never actually gets to see Buffy, yet he comes away with the impression that she already knows he's alive, and she doesn't seem to care. It's Andrew, so who knows if he's telling the truth or not when he says Buffy thinks they should both move on, but essentially, Spike tried so hard to avoid asking the question, and got the answer he was dreading anyway.
This is the guy that doesn't ever give up. On anything. Especially not when he got the crumb he was finally looking for.
Except he's not the same guy anymore, and he's no longer looking for that crumb. That's true of the old Spike, because he wasn't afraid to look desperate, wasn't ashamed to prostrate himself at the feet of the woman he loved and beg for her to love him back. He did it with Drusilla, he did it with Buffy in "Crush" and again in "Seeing Red," and in more than a few season six episodes in between.
But this is not the same old Spike. This is Spike with a soul, Spike with a new sense of self. This is a Spike who understands pride and shame and selflessness. This is a Spike who is willing to walk away in "First Date" if it's what Buffy wants. This is a Spike who can look Buffy in the eye and say, "You used me." He's not going to beg.
He doesn't need to. He doesn't need Buffy to love him. He says as much in "Touched," and shows it in "Chosen." It doesn't matter if Buffy loves him or not; it's enough for him to have loved her.
We got such an opportunity to see Spike's development, post-soul, with his treatment of Harmony. Pre-soul, he was just an asshole to her. I was expecting to see something of a difference in AtS S5.
The soul doesn't change his personality, just his conscience. Likegabrielleabelle said, before the soul, he was "nicer to girls than he is to men" - but he was still an asshole to Harmony then. And he's still capable of being an asshole with a soul. But he's also capable of realizing he was an asshole, and being nice to Harmony in the next episode, as elisi pointed out.
I won't argue that there's no wonky characterization, because there is, but that's hardly unusual for this 'verse. If I've been willing to overlook it for all seven seasons of Buffy and the first four seasons of Angel, I think I can manage to overlook it when it's Spike on AtS S5. But overall, I think Spike's mindset fits pretty well with where I perceived him to be at the end of BtVS, and more Spike is always better than no Spike, so yes, I am very happy to have had him on AtS S5.
gabrielleabelle made a post about Spike in AtS S5, and how she thought it would have been better if he'd never been brought back. I think we overwhelmed her with the response, lol, and since I am incapable of saying anything with brevity, I thought it best to post my thoughts in my own LJ. You might want to read her post first, as I address several specific points she made; however, I think these points are pretty universal for anyone who holds that position. Also note that, since this was initially intended to be a comment on her post, I make reference to and quote comments on her post.Spike meets success as being more than a monster and saves the world. And that is the perfect ending for him.
Is it? I think if you're looking at only BtVS, there is definitely a character arc that ends at "Chosen." It's the big finale, so it's supposed to feel like the end. Spike has sought redemption and become a champion. But is it really the pinnacle of all Spike can achieve? He doesn't just save the world - he has to sacrifice himself to do it, and that's an important point. He's a hero, sure, but he only has to prove it once.
I see it as being much like Buffy's death in "The Gift." Sure, the noble, heroic, sacrificial death is a great gesture, but it's also the easy way out. It's a lot harder to live as a hero than to die as one. Buffy says so herself, right before she takes the plunge. Or just ask Angel, who has struggled (and sometimes failed) to be a hero for the last four seasons. For me, Spike's arc isn't truly complete until he's lived as a hero, and he doesn't get a chance to do that until AtS. That doesn't mean I don't think the writers could've done it better, but I'd rather they try - and maybe they failed, but they gave Spike some brilliant moments - than not giving Spike a chance at all. Otherwise, it feels like Spike had so much potential to be a hero, but never really got the chance to be one for more than moment.
In AtS S5, Spike reverts back to a slightly more moral BtVS S4 version of himself.
I disagree. While AtS S5 Spike certainly bears some resemblance to that era Spike, I don't see it as a regression. I see it as a composite. BtVS S7 Spike was wonderful in a lot of ways, but he wasn't fully Spike. As
shipperx said, "Spike had always had a love of life, even though he was dead and, quite frankly, Season 7 had kicked that life out of him." He was very much changed by the soul, and for much of the season, he had difficulty integrating the soul with who he had been before. A Spike that needs to be goaded into killing demons is no Spike I know. :) On AtS, I see him fitting the pieces together, managing to regain his old attitude and snark (which, un-William as it is, is a part of Spike now, and he's incomplete without it) while still living within the bounds of the soul. I also see him moving beyond the person he was for pretty much all of BtVS. His entire life, he's never been independent. He went right from his mother's arms to Drusilla's, and then he became Buffy's willing slave. Everyone loves to refer to Spike as love's bitch, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. I would be horrified by a woman who defined herself so thoroughly by the men she dated, so why is it okay when it's Spike? Yes, he has done incredible things for love, but I want to see him move beyond that. I want to see him do incredible things because it's his choice, not because it'll make a girl happy. His death in "Chosen" is great, but it's just a moment, and when it comes down to it, I do agree with
snickfic: "I'd much rather watch him live with his past than die for it." AtS gives him a chance to live with it every day, not just make one grand gesture and go up in flame.A lot of people say that he never really gained independence, that he simply traded Buffy's mission for Angel's. But that's not totally true. There's no need to repeat everything when
elisi has written a brilliant meta about it, so I'll just summarize: Essentially, Spike has been doing his own thing for much of the season. He wasn't on board with "Evil Incorporated," he was helping the helpless on his own terms - until Fred died. To quote:"Fred’s death crystallises his decision for him: He wants to stay. Because it feels like the right thing. Because he loved Fred. Because he cares about Angel. And because he can make a difference. No longer ‘who do *you* want me to be?’ but ‘who do *I* want to be?’ And he sure as hell didn’t sign any contract with W&H! As the rest are falling apart, Spike is finally finding himself - at peace (more or less) with himself and his place in the world."
Spike has never really been a leader on the side of good. He's always willing to stand behind someone, be it Buffy or Angel or even fake!Doyle, and follow their lead. But the important difference in AtS is that he chooses sides (first rejecting W&H, and then joining Angel's fight) because he wants to, because he has decided it's the right thing to do.
Spike gets used often to forward Angel's development. Which...well...it is Angel's show. Still, I yawn in Angel's general direction so I don't care so much about using Spike in that fashion. I wanted to see Spike develop on his own.
The only solution there is for Spike to have his own show, because that's the only way his character development is going to be front and center. I think we'd all have loved for that to happen, but it's not realistic to expect that from AtS. He was lucky that he managed to have such prominent development on Buffy, but still - it was her show, and his development was all tied to her. If he hadn't become her love interest, we would never have seen the kind of development we did. (In fact, one of the reasons Spike fell in love with her in the first place was because they'd run out of things to do with the character.)
That doesn't mean he doesn't develop at all, and again I'd refer you to
elisi's meta on S5.And I still can't buy the fact that Spike didn't even contact Buffy about his return.
I can, easily. And it goes back to what
2maggie2 said: "Spike was *certain* that Buffy did not and never would love him and that he viewed his death in the hellmouth as a letting go of her." I know plenty of people don't believe that, and as was pointed out in earlier discussions, that makes AtS S5 a lot harder to accept. I'm not often one to say you should or shouldn't believe something, because we all have our interpretations, but IMO it's a lot easier to believe he didn't think she loved him and let AtS S5 fall into line than it is to interpret "No, you don't" as "I know you do" and see virtually all of AtS S5 as OOC. There are mental backflips there I just don't understand.He can't tell her he's alive because he doesn't know how to tell her without all the drama of asking her to make a decision about whether she loves him or not (especially since he thinks he knows the answer to that, and he doesn't want to be rejected again). He doesn't even need to ask the question; his very existence forces her to confront her feelings for him. Does she love him and want to be with him, or can she continue to live her life, knowing he's alive and in LA, and be okay with being apart? He doesn't want to put her in that position, and he certainly doesn't want her to feel obligated to be with him now just because she said something (he thinks) she didn't mean when she thought he was dying. He absolved her of her obligation to him in the Hellmouth, and he's okay with loving her unrequitedly.
It's not a decision that he makes rashly. Maybe if he hadn't had time to think about it, he'd have rushed off to Buffy. And maybe he would've been better off, because she'd have convinced him she loved him and they'd be happy. But he can't rush off right away, so he does have time to think, and he realizes it's probably not worth the risk of getting rejected again.
It's so very clearly a case of "Let's have Angel and Spike compete to get to Buffy!" which is the fan-dream.
I have to agree with
ms_scarletibis and others here - if you think TGIQ was all about getting Buffy, you're not paying attention. It's not about Buffy at all. It's about Angel and Spike's relationship with each other, and their silly rivalry with the Immortal. There's a reason they have those flashbacks to 1890 in this episode - because it shows that it doesn't really matter what it is the Immortal has taken from them, all that matters is that he took it, and damned if Angel and Spike will let that happen again. And when it comes to Buffy, I'm sure all that thinking Spike did isn't far from his mind. He's still wondering whether it's worth telling her he's alive. And I'm sure it seems easier to show up in Rome on business and "conveniently" run into Buffy and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm not dead," than it would be for him to actively reach out and put his heart on the line. The irony, though, is that Spike never actually gets to see Buffy, yet he comes away with the impression that she already knows he's alive, and she doesn't seem to care. It's Andrew, so who knows if he's telling the truth or not when he says Buffy thinks they should both move on, but essentially, Spike tried so hard to avoid asking the question, and got the answer he was dreading anyway.
This is the guy that doesn't ever give up. On anything. Especially not when he got the crumb he was finally looking for.
Except he's not the same guy anymore, and he's no longer looking for that crumb. That's true of the old Spike, because he wasn't afraid to look desperate, wasn't ashamed to prostrate himself at the feet of the woman he loved and beg for her to love him back. He did it with Drusilla, he did it with Buffy in "Crush" and again in "Seeing Red," and in more than a few season six episodes in between.
But this is not the same old Spike. This is Spike with a soul, Spike with a new sense of self. This is a Spike who understands pride and shame and selflessness. This is a Spike who is willing to walk away in "First Date" if it's what Buffy wants. This is a Spike who can look Buffy in the eye and say, "You used me." He's not going to beg.
He doesn't need to. He doesn't need Buffy to love him. He says as much in "Touched," and shows it in "Chosen." It doesn't matter if Buffy loves him or not; it's enough for him to have loved her.
We got such an opportunity to see Spike's development, post-soul, with his treatment of Harmony. Pre-soul, he was just an asshole to her. I was expecting to see something of a difference in AtS S5.
The soul doesn't change his personality, just his conscience. Like
gabrielleabelle said, before the soul, he was "nicer to girls than he is to men" - but he was still an asshole to Harmony then. And he's still capable of being an asshole with a soul. But he's also capable of realizing he was an asshole, and being nice to Harmony in the next episode, as elisi pointed out.I won't argue that there's no wonky characterization, because there is, but that's hardly unusual for this 'verse. If I've been willing to overlook it for all seven seasons of Buffy and the first four seasons of Angel, I think I can manage to overlook it when it's Spike on AtS S5. But overall, I think Spike's mindset fits pretty well with where I perceived him to be at the end of BtVS, and more Spike is always better than no Spike, so yes, I am very happy to have had him on AtS S5.
no subject
Date: May. 8th, 2009 04:44 am (UTC)Okay, a little.
I think I'm really coming at this from a very different perspective than most other people. I had finished watching Buffy a good two years before seeing Spike on AtS. BtVS was firmly set in my mind, I had my fan theories and interpretations established, and the characters figured out in my head.
What some people don't realize is that Spike isn't my favorite character because of who he is, necessarily. I love him for his character arc. The structure. It's very grand and epic and literary and beautiful in it's completeness. Sorry, that's the best word I have for it. If it had any other ending other than what he got in Chosen, I probably wouldn't have loved him as much. His story appeals to my geeky, literary side in how it's executed and portrayed.
So, given that, I'm gonna be resistant to anything that messes with that beautiful structure. And, like I say, what we get has to be worth messing with his arc. And I don't feel it is.
He certainly had some good development in AtS S5. I give credit to that. And he has some brilliant moments. But does that, alone, make it worth it to me? Not really. It has to add something to his prior character arc (like the poetry slam).
The only solution there is for Spike to have his own show, because that's the only way his character development is going to be front and center.
Partially agree. However, he was treated much more as an independent character on BtVS than he was in AtS. This is especially noticeable in BtVS S5. Let me quote
"I suppose I was okay with it but the AtS writers didn't really respect who Spike was deep inside and often treated him like comic relief or a foil for Angel. Back on BtVS Spike was never just a means to the end of developing the main character but a meaningful individual in his own right."
I basically feel the same way. Spike had some moments of his own on AtS, but most of his development was used to bolster Angel's character. On the other hand, we got plenty of independent character development from Spike on BtVS.
I'm not often one to say you should or shouldn't believe something, because we all have our interpretations, but IMO it's a lot easier to believe he didn't think she loved him and let AtS S5 fall into line than it is to interpret "No, you don't" as "I know you do" and see virtually all of AtS S5 as OOC. There are mental backflips there I just don't understand.
Actually, it would take more mental backflips for me to accept it, honestly. Again, because of where I'm coming from, watching AtS S5 so long after having BtVS established in my mind, AtS often feels like secondary canon to me. Usually it's not a problem, because it's in sync with how I view the verse. But every now and again, a conflict comes up, and it's easier for me to disregard the newer stuff than the old, established stuff (that I like better anyway).
Besides, even if Spike didn't believe her declaration, I'm still not entirely happy with how it was dealt with in AtS S5. When he first materializes, he seems vehement that he and Buffy had "something". Then he just drops it and decides not to contact her. I don't know, but the Spike I know wouldn't let that declaration be the end of things. Even if he didn't quite buy it, he'd try to make contact.
I do like to see Spike gain some independence from the women in his life. I think that's a good thing. Like I said in my entry, though, that could have been done pretty damn easily with Spike making a phone call to Buffy when he became corporeal. Have him explain that he needed some time to sort things out, and leave it at that. That would appease me and leave her declaration decidedly up for interpretation.
(contd in next comment)
no subject
Date: May. 8th, 2009 04:45 am (UTC)Actually, yeah, I got that about the episode. And I still think it was dumb.
I think it was dumb to use Buffy in such a manner. I think Angel's characterization was off the wall. I know it's a comedy episode, and I appreciate the "meta-ness" of it, but throwing Buffy into the mix begs people to see it as "the resolution" to the Bangel vs Spuffy thing. And that just doesn't sit well with me.
Also, I don't care so much about Angel, so the Angel/Spike relationship is of little interest to me. That's most likely why the episode flopped, in my mind.
This is a Spike who can look Buffy in the eye and say, "You used me." He's not going to beg.
I'd hardly call giving her a call to let her know he's alive "begging". ;)
And he's still capable of being an asshole with a soul. But he's also capable of realizing he was an asshole, and being nice to Harmony in the next episode, as
So he was nice to her once so it's all okay? That's like saying him playing 20 Questions with her in S5 means that he was actually a good boyfriend to her. The general attitude I came away with from Spike in relation to that was general disdain for Harmony. He treated her like crap most of the time with no consideration for her feelings.
Yes, he can still be an asshole with a soul. There's no denying that. Hell, he's an asshole to Angel. And I'm not even really complaining that he's OOC because of his treatment of Harmony (Notice that the question on my poll wasn't about whether he was in-character but whether you were "okay" with it).
However, they missed an opportunity. Harmony is a soulless vampire trying to be on the straight and narrow, somewhat like Spike back in the day. It would have been wonderful to see him treat her differently in regards to that now that they have some sort of connection (other than just sex). It would have been a nice show of how his character has developed. Instead, we just get same old Asshole Spike. Color me not impressed.
Really, with AtS S5, the characterization is the least of my issues. There are some OOC moments that made me raise and eyebrow, but most of it was okay. My main complaint is what I said above: It messes with the structure of his arc, which is what I, personally, loved about him. I didn't need to see more Spike. I was happy with what I got.
Hell, you could have brought Spike back for any number of reasons. Have an exploration of him and Dru now that he's souled or have him go off on his own instead of being Angel's sidekick or even have him going straight back to Buffy, I'd still be skeptical about him being brought back, and I'd still need a damn good reason to accept it. That's purely because of my attachment to how his story ended.
Obviously, not everybody has that attachment, and most people watched AtS fairly soon after seeing BtVS, so they don't have that issue, either. Which, hey, each to their own. I'm not denying the canonicity of Spike in AtS S5 because...well...it happened. But I will just blip over it, and probably won't take it into much consideration when thinking about Spike because, really, his story ended in Chosen for me.
no subject
Date: May. 8th, 2009 01:48 pm (UTC)I disagree. I think Joss has proved over and over that he's not about to give any resolution either way (which I think is somewhat cowardly, because he doesn't want to piss off either fanbase, but that's another story). He sat on the fence in "Chosen" by bringing Angel back, he sat on the fence for all of AtS S5 by not providing a conclusion for either relationship, and he's still sitting on the fence to this day, with Buffy dreaming about threesomes in the S8 comics. Again, if people are looking for "the resolution" to Bangel vs. Spuffy in this episode, then they're not paying attention. It's just another tease. I can understand if that pisses some people off, but for me, it's the least annoying of all of Joss' jerking around, because at least I found TGIQ entertaining. The other stuff just comes off as weird.
The general attitude I came away with from Spike in relation to that was general disdain for Harmony. He treated her like crap most of the time with no consideration for her feelings.
That's not the impression I got. He seems dismissive of Harmony, but other than the sex on the table in "Destiny" (which he later makes up for by being nice), I don't think he was ever really mean to her.
no subject
Date: May. 8th, 2009 01:33 pm (UTC)Yes, I definitely think that makes a difference. Maybe you should do another poll to see if that's a pattern. :) I don't know what the breakdown is of people who watched AtS right after/alongside BtVS vs. people who came to AtS later (or didn't watch it at all), but I would guess that the opinions might line up with whether or not they were satisfied by Spike's reappearance in S5.
I love him for his character arc. The structure.
That also makes sense. Again, not sure if that's a common approach (I would guess that most people like Spike for who he is first and for his arc structure second), but for me, I'm more driven by wanting to see Spike achieve as much as he can. And, not to repeat myself, but "Chosen" is a great moment, but I feel like he is capable of so much more than that, so I wanted to see him go on.
Actually, it would take more mental backflips for me to accept it, honestly.
Well, we've already had this conversation elsewhere, but even without AtS, I still don't see Spike believing Buffy when she says "I love you." If Spike's story truly had ended at "Chosen," I'd still have seen it as a tragic miscommunication and not a romantic ending. AtS S5 was just confirmation for me.
When he first materializes, he seems vehement that he and Buffy had "something".
Yes, they had "something," but was it love? As I said, I think that's what Spike has a chance to reflect on during his incorporeal period. It's certainly true that, love or not, their relationship was the best it had ever been right before he died. Makes sense that his first reaction would be to want to resume that. But after thinking about it, he's gotta be wondering, what's he going back for? Buffy doesn't love him, which means their reunion is going to go one of two ways. She could just reject him outright, which I'm sure he has no desire to face again. Or she could accept him, not out of love but out of obligation, because she said something in the heat of the moment to a dying man, who turned out to be not so dead, and she can't take it back, so now she's stuck with it. Stuck with him. And that's exactly what he doesn't want, a return to the one-sided relationship where Buffy doesn't really love him. Only this would be worse, because she's not with him this time out of selfishness, but out of pity. If there's one thing Spike doesn't want, it's pity.
Have him explain that he needed some time to sort things out, and leave it at that.
But saying to Buffy, "Hey, I'm alive, but I need time to sort things out," is still forcing her to make a decision - it's just putting it off for a bit, because at some point he'll be done sorting, and then they'll have to face this. If he never tells her at all, she never has to decide whether she wants to be with him. It's one thing for him to say "No, you don't [love me]." It's quite another to hear her say, "You know what? You're right. I don't."
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Date: May. 8th, 2009 06:58 pm (UTC)no subject
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Date: May. 8th, 2009 05:58 am (UTC)You make a good observation about how much harder it would be to buy Spike's delay in contacting Buffy if you thought he believed her. I don't really see how he could have. It's hard enough for me to persuade myself even though I want to believe it and I don't share Spike's oft-repeated assumption that she didn't love him and never would. Anywho -- I'd think the delay in contacting her was always thought of as a delay, and that an important element in delaying was that Spike wanted to actually be doing the moving on he thought she expected him to do after the battle was over. Easier all around that way. That's why he jumped at the chance to see her while in Rome on other busines.
I can like lots of TGIQ. I never liked the idea of the Immortal, though, cause, well, after giving Spike such a very hard time about not having a soul, for her to hook up with a guy who is "amoral" just doesn't sit well with me. I was *very* glad when that got retconned. (My good brother who actually does really believe Buffy loved him was so sure of this that his reaction to TGIQ was that it was obviousy not really Buffy there. He's wise.)
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Date: May. 8th, 2009 02:06 pm (UTC)Neither do I... I think she definitely loved him. But I also don't blame him for not believing it.
I never liked the idea of the Immortal, though, cause, well, after giving Spike such a very hard time about not having a soul, for her to hook up with a guy who is "amoral" just doesn't sit well with me.
Well, here's the thing... only Angel and Spike think the Immortal's a bad guy. Everyone else seems to love him. Now, maybe he's got some kind of thrall or spell that only Angel and Spike are immune to, but I would take anything those two say about the Immortal with a grain of salt. They're not exactly likely to be objective when talking about their sworn nemesis. :)
I don't really have an opinion on the retcon. I think it works either way - it doesn't seem very Buffy-like to be partying it up in Rome when they've got all this responsibility with the new Slayers, so it made sense that it wasn't really her. On the other hand, I think she does deserve a break, and before the retcon, I didn't begrudge her that. I also think, whether she loved Spike or not, she thinks he's dead, so it's fine that she would try to move on, and in fact it makes sense that her rebound would have some characteristics that remind her of Spike.
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Date: May. 8th, 2009 06:26 am (UTC)You've done a great job of summing it all up!
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Date: May. 8th, 2009 02:07 pm (UTC)no subject
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Date: May. 8th, 2009 10:35 am (UTC)Which makes the revelation that Buffy isn't even in Rome at all and has never met the Immortal even more deliciously ironic. ;-)
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Date: May. 8th, 2009 02:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: May. 8th, 2009 11:51 am (UTC)*adds to mems*
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