TVD thoughts
Jan. 6th, 2012 10:41 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
next_to_normalLots to say about this episode but I'm just going to talk about That Scene at the End. Priorities. I has 'em.
So, THE KISS. I posted this interpretation onpocochina's reaction post:
Elena: "I don't know what I would do without you."
Damon's twitchy face: Dammit, now she's gonna have ~expectations about me being the good brother. How can I royally fuck this up in the quickest way possible?
*SMOOCHIES*
Damon's twitchy face: Why isn't she punching me? FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.
but my feelings are somewhat more ~complicated. I have a few observations, approximately in chronological order:
1. I probably need to watch it again for Ian's ~facial expressions, but when Elena said she couldn't have done it without Damon, Damon looked uncomfortable to me. Which makes sense. He has a ridiculous love/hate relationship with being the "good brother" - he'll accept the role in Stefan's absence because it's only temporary but don't EVER start acting like he's Stefan, or he'll go out of his way to show you how UN-Stefan-like he is (3.04). So Elena's words - which were obviously meant to convey gratitude and a compliment - have sort of the opposite effect. He worries that she's starting to think of him as a permanent replacement for Stefan.
2. More than once, I was so sure I knew where this scene was going, only to have it zig when I thought it should zag. For example, when Damon said he thought he wouldn't have to feel guilty anymore, my brain immediately - and I mean immediately - jumped to "...because everything Stefan's done and all the people he's killed, he did because he was trying to save me, so it's all my fault. And also because I hate having to owe my brother anything." Which, y'know, would've made sense given that Damon's big revelation in this episode is that Stefan ONCE AGAIN saved him to everyone else's detriment. But instead? It's about his ~feelings for Elena.
REALLY? THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE CHOOSING TO CARE ABOUT RIGHT NOW?
I suppose it's possible this is just Damon's inability to feel empathy for people he's never met, but then again, Stefan's actions have hurt Elena, too, and he obviously cares about that. So why suddenly bring up his feelings - which, by the way, she already knows about and has opted to pretend don't exist - at this particular point?
I'm also somewhat skeptical that Damon actually feels guilty about his feelings for Elena. I've always thought he just accepts they exist and they're never going away, but he also accepts that it's never going to happen so w/e. He's not going to dwell on it. He wants Elena to remember how she felt, but he's never made any serious attempt to ~woo her while Stefan's away, even when they assumed he was gone for good. What was there to feel guilty about?
So. I find the "I feel guilty about my ~feelings" thing to be fishy from multiple angles. Which leads us to...
3. I cannot for the life of me remember who wrote this meta, but someone (ever_neutral? semele?) was talking about the power dynamics in D/E and how Damon always used sexuality to make Elena uncomfortable. And it worked because it reflected Elena's darker side and she believed she shouldn't be attracted to Damon because that would make her a terrible person. But then, after all the horrible stuff she's dealt with, the things she's had to do... on the scale of moral depravity, being attracted to Damon just doesn't seem like that big of a deal anymore. So it stops being uncomfortable, as evidenced by how totally at ease she is being intimate with him (the bed scene in 3.08).
But that means Elena now has TOTAL control over Damon. His ability to make her uncomfortable was really all he had to counterbalance her ability to manipulate him into doing whatever she wants. So if overtly sexualized interaction no longer makes her uncomfortable, what would? Perhaps... reminding her that it's not just sexual? She's come to terms with the idea of finding Damon sexually attractive as long as she doesn't act on it, but in doing so, she also has to pretend that he's not in love with her. She's just been going on about how important Damon is to her - entirely as a friend, as her support in a difficult time, as someone she can count on - and his response is basically, "Oh, by the way, I'm still in love with you, remember?"
He knows it's going to make her pull away from him. He's expecting that. It's what she's done every time, save that one deathbed kissing thing, which she only did because he was DYING. That's why my "How can I royally fuck this up in the quickest way possible?" interpretation is slightly facetious, but kinda not? Because he's consciously initiating something which he believes will result in Elena distancing herself from him, or at the very least, making her uncomfortable again.
(And of course Damon only does it because of that safety net. He knows that Stefan's NOT beyond saving, that it's only a matter of time before Stefan's back, and Elena would NEVER choose Damon over Stefan. He's not taking a risk because he already knows the outcome.)
4. But here's the weird thing - Elena doesn't react the way he (and I, quite frankly) was anticipating. She reciprocates the kiss, she doesn't push him away, she doesn't say they shouldn't have done that. She doesn't even give him a dirty look. And of course, there's still plenty of time for her to be awkward or angry at him later, but for now? I'm betting Damon thinks he's really got something to feel guilty about, because that wasn't supposed to happen. He wasn't trying to seduce her - it was just a "Imma take what I can get and no apologies" moment. She's supposed to be the one setting the boundaries, because he's incapable of it.
Whoops.
tl;dr: I really liked the kiss, but found it shippy in only the most dysfunctional way! Which is pretty much my mission statement for these kids. *pets them*
So, THE KISS. I posted this interpretation on
pocochina's reaction post:Elena: "I don't know what I would do without you."
Damon's twitchy face: Dammit, now she's gonna have ~expectations about me being the good brother. How can I royally fuck this up in the quickest way possible?
*SMOOCHIES*
Damon's twitchy face: Why isn't she punching me? FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.
but my feelings are somewhat more ~complicated. I have a few observations, approximately in chronological order:
1. I probably need to watch it again for Ian's ~facial expressions, but when Elena said she couldn't have done it without Damon, Damon looked uncomfortable to me. Which makes sense. He has a ridiculous love/hate relationship with being the "good brother" - he'll accept the role in Stefan's absence because it's only temporary but don't EVER start acting like he's Stefan, or he'll go out of his way to show you how UN-Stefan-like he is (3.04). So Elena's words - which were obviously meant to convey gratitude and a compliment - have sort of the opposite effect. He worries that she's starting to think of him as a permanent replacement for Stefan.
2. More than once, I was so sure I knew where this scene was going, only to have it zig when I thought it should zag. For example, when Damon said he thought he wouldn't have to feel guilty anymore, my brain immediately - and I mean immediately - jumped to "...because everything Stefan's done and all the people he's killed, he did because he was trying to save me, so it's all my fault. And also because I hate having to owe my brother anything." Which, y'know, would've made sense given that Damon's big revelation in this episode is that Stefan ONCE AGAIN saved him to everyone else's detriment. But instead? It's about his ~feelings for Elena.
REALLY? THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE CHOOSING TO CARE ABOUT RIGHT NOW?
I suppose it's possible this is just Damon's inability to feel empathy for people he's never met, but then again, Stefan's actions have hurt Elena, too, and he obviously cares about that. So why suddenly bring up his feelings - which, by the way, she already knows about and has opted to pretend don't exist - at this particular point?
I'm also somewhat skeptical that Damon actually feels guilty about his feelings for Elena. I've always thought he just accepts they exist and they're never going away, but he also accepts that it's never going to happen so w/e. He's not going to dwell on it. He wants Elena to remember how she felt, but he's never made any serious attempt to ~woo her while Stefan's away, even when they assumed he was gone for good. What was there to feel guilty about?
So. I find the "I feel guilty about my ~feelings" thing to be fishy from multiple angles. Which leads us to...
3. I cannot for the life of me remember who wrote this meta, but someone (
ever_neutral? semele?) was talking about the power dynamics in D/E and how Damon always used sexuality to make Elena uncomfortable. And it worked because it reflected Elena's darker side and she believed she shouldn't be attracted to Damon because that would make her a terrible person. But then, after all the horrible stuff she's dealt with, the things she's had to do... on the scale of moral depravity, being attracted to Damon just doesn't seem like that big of a deal anymore. So it stops being uncomfortable, as evidenced by how totally at ease she is being intimate with him (the bed scene in 3.08). But that means Elena now has TOTAL control over Damon. His ability to make her uncomfortable was really all he had to counterbalance her ability to manipulate him into doing whatever she wants. So if overtly sexualized interaction no longer makes her uncomfortable, what would? Perhaps... reminding her that it's not just sexual? She's come to terms with the idea of finding Damon sexually attractive as long as she doesn't act on it, but in doing so, she also has to pretend that he's not in love with her. She's just been going on about how important Damon is to her - entirely as a friend, as her support in a difficult time, as someone she can count on - and his response is basically, "Oh, by the way, I'm still in love with you, remember?"
He knows it's going to make her pull away from him. He's expecting that. It's what she's done every time, save that one deathbed kissing thing, which she only did because he was DYING. That's why my "How can I royally fuck this up in the quickest way possible?" interpretation is slightly facetious, but kinda not? Because he's consciously initiating something which he believes will result in Elena distancing herself from him, or at the very least, making her uncomfortable again.
(And of course Damon only does it because of that safety net. He knows that Stefan's NOT beyond saving, that it's only a matter of time before Stefan's back, and Elena would NEVER choose Damon over Stefan. He's not taking a risk because he already knows the outcome.)
4. But here's the weird thing - Elena doesn't react the way he (and I, quite frankly) was anticipating. She reciprocates the kiss, she doesn't push him away, she doesn't say they shouldn't have done that. She doesn't even give him a dirty look. And of course, there's still plenty of time for her to be awkward or angry at him later, but for now? I'm betting Damon thinks he's really got something to feel guilty about, because that wasn't supposed to happen. He wasn't trying to seduce her - it was just a "Imma take what I can get and no apologies" moment. She's supposed to be the one setting the boundaries, because he's incapable of it.
Whoops.
tl;dr: I really liked the kiss, but found it shippy in only the most dysfunctional way! Which is pretty much my mission statement for these kids. *pets them*
no subject
Date: Jan. 6th, 2012 03:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: Jan. 7th, 2012 05:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jan. 6th, 2012 10:09 pm (UTC)REALLY? THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE CHOOSING TO CARE ABOUT RIGHT NOW?
It actually makes sense to me? Because the notion that Stefan betrayed them didn't really influence Damon's perception of all the things his brother's done; it just made Stefan the Bad Guy on a very personal level, so Damon didn't think he should feel obliged to feel loyal to him (he didn't feel obliged to be loyal anyway, not in this sense, but when Stefan was a good guy, Damon's brain knew that he should've). So all the things Stefan's done and all the people he's killed totally are Damon's fault, regardless of whether Stefan screwed them over in 3x09 or not. Damon discovering that Stefan didn't in fact screw them over has nothing to do with what Stefan did up to 3x08.
Good point with Damon trying to get some of his power over Elena back by reminding her that he loves her! I didn't think about that, but I certainly agree that it makes perfect sense. Btw, this meta post you're talking about is mine :). And now I feel that it's just useless, because after 3x10 I NEED A COMPLETELY NEW POST TO EXPRESS EVERYTHING I FEEL ABOUT THIS SHIP!!!
no subject
Date: Jan. 6th, 2012 10:28 pm (UTC)So all the things Stefan's done and all the people he's killed totally are Damon's fault, regardless of whether Stefan screwed them over in 3x09 or not. Damon discovering that Stefan didn't in fact screw them over has nothing to do with what Stefan did up to 3x08.
Fair point. (And, to be fair, this was a split-second assumption in between "...wouldn't have to feel guilty." and "For wanting the things I want." so... not exactly well thought out at the time, LOL.)
But I guess I was thinking along the lines of, okay, he's always felt guilty, and because of that (and because he loves his bro), he's done everything he possibly could do to fix it - rescuing Stefan, road-trips galore, teaming up with Katherine, freeing Mikael, killing Klaus - and it didn't work. After all Damon's efforts, Stefan didn't want to be saved. He still betrayed them, which means he's hopeless. Therefore, Damon can stop trying and not feel bad about it? Because he gave it his best shot.
It takes a lot for Damon to give up on someone, especially Stefan, and - not to take credit away from the soothing power of Elena's face-stroking and "then we'll let him go" bit - I felt like Damon needed more than that to allow himself to give up on Stefan. And I think he was almost there in that confrontation at the House That Hates Him, and then Stefan reveals the truth.
So now it turns out that Stefan's NOT hopeless, he still cares enough to save Damon, which means he can be brought back. So Damon's not allowed to give up on him.
no subject
Date: Jan. 7th, 2012 08:48 am (UTC)After all Damon's efforts, Stefan didn't want to be saved. He still betrayed them, which means he's hopeless. Therefore, Damon can stop trying and not feel bad about it? Because he gave it his best shot.
I see your point. But I think that this is just, idk, too healthy for Damon? Because what you describe is exactly what a sane person would and should do. But Damon? I think he is too obsessive to ever let himself stop trying.
no subject
Date: Jan. 7th, 2012 05:09 am (UTC)IF YOU DON'T MAKE THIS POST, I WILL CRY TEARS OF BLOOD.
no subject
Date: Jan. 7th, 2012 08:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jan. 7th, 2012 12:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jan. 7th, 2012 05:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jan. 7th, 2012 08:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jan. 7th, 2012 05:16 am (UTC)3. Ha, that was Marta. All her thoughts are excellent.
Perhaps... reminding her that it's not just sexual? ... She's just been going on about how important Damon is to her - entirely as a friend, as her support in a difficult time, as someone she can count on - and his response is basically, "Oh, by the way, I'm still in love with you, remember?"
YES YES YES. That's precisely why he Goes There, when… he really didn't have to. I mean, I'm sure he does feel guilt about having feelings for Elena, to a degree, he does feel like he's undeserving of Elena's love. (And I'm not too worried about him not caring very much about all the people Stefan's killed, because Elena doesn't seem to care much either HAHAHA.) But the kiss was totally self-destructive and foolhardy, it wasn't LET'S GET MARRIED I'M READY. No, he is so not ready.
He wasn't trying to seduce her - it was just a "Imma take what I can get and no apologies" moment.
Perfectly said.
I really liked the kiss, but found it shippy in only the most dysfunctional way! Which is pretty much my mission statement for these kids. *pets them*
Yes yes yes! It didn't feel romantic in a true sense at all, it was just so clumsy and spontaneous and solved/validated NOTHING, carry on, idiots.
p.s. every time you cite me, my head swells up like a hot air balloon.
no subject
Date: Jan. 7th, 2012 05:43 am (UTC)That's precisely why he Goes There, when… he really didn't have to.
Yeah. I mean, why else would he bring it up now? They seem to have this unspoken understanding to NEVER TALK ABOUT IT EVER (with exceptions for impending death). And now Damon's all I AM CRANKY. FUCK THE RULES.
And I'm not too worried about him not caring very much about all the people Stefan's killed, because Elena doesn't seem to care much either HAHAHA.
HAHAHA, yeah. I'm not worried about it, either. But I've been reading this book? The Psychopath Test and... yeah. Fits Damon to a T. :) #things we already knew
Easily bored! Lack of empathy! Lack of remorse! Glibness/superficial charm! Poor behavioral controls! Lack of realistic long-term goals! Impulsivity!
Dear God, I think we're ALL psychopaths.