S7 Spuffy pondering

[next_to_normal]

Yesterday, snickfic made a post on the things she doesn't like about Spike in S7. I'll just copy the relevant point here:

The non-discussion of the AR. It is the huge purple elephant in the room in S7, rarely referred to but entirely overshadowing Spike and Buffy's relationship. I wish they'd actually talked it out sometime, even if we didn't see much of the discussion on screen. Just a hint that this was something that they were working through and moving on from would have been helpful.

In the comments, angearia asked a very good question, which is: "What discussion of the AR would be satisfying? What needs to be said to make it work?"

And so I'm curious. I've seen plenty of people express displeasure with the way the AR (or even the entire S6 Spuffy relationship in general) was brushed aside in S7, but I don't know that I've ever seen anyone answer Emmie's question of what would make it better. (This may or may not be relevant to a fic idea I'm working on, but I ask more out of curiosity than anything else, as one who doesn't have a problem with what we were given.)

It seems like a difficult question to answer, since there's no real life equivalent to going and getting a soul, but are there expectations that Spike - or Buffy, for that matter - need to meet to make it "okay" for them to pursue a relationship again? Are verbal apologies and forgiveness necessary, or do actions speak louder than words? What is it that people find lacking about the way it was addressed on the show?

Comments

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

there's no real life equivalent to going and getting a soul

How about "Going to spend ten years as a volunteer aid worker in the Congo helping victims of rape and ethnic cleansing there"? I thimk that kind of implies the same level of repentance and self-sacrifice that Spike going for his soul had; at least as a starting point for comparison or discussion.

Just throwing that out there... :-)

[next_to_normal]

Hmm, I think that only really addresses one aspect of the soul - the repentance for wrongdoing. But when you're talking about a rapist going back to the person he raped and starting a relationship, then the act has to not only balance the scales of right and wrong, but also repair the relationship with the victim.

Helping strangers is wonderful, but I doubt that's enough to make a rape victim trust her rapist. The soul had such great significance to Buffy, and Spike getting one changed everything. (I think she'd probably have forgiven him if he hadn't gotten the soul, but I can't see them getting back together without it.)

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

I'm decidedly undecided on this, to be honest. It was one of my initial complaints about the scene, but I've kind of mellowed on it. And now...

I think Spike had it right in Beneath You. He can't say he's sorry or ask for forgiveness. And I don't think Buffy is obligated to give him explicit forgiveness (though she certainly shows she forgives him later, going so far as to turn her back on her mentor for Spike).

I think what I would have actually liked was Buffy having a conversation with Dawn or Xander about how they feel about it. Nothing huge. Just have Xander commenting that he can't move past what Spike did, and Buffy saying that she can, or something similar with Dawn.

[next_to_normal]

For me, personally, I think the way the AR was set up makes it very difficult for them to have this conversation. (This is something I've discovered in trying to write about it.)

I mean, in our heads, we can forgive Spike because of all the mitigating circumstances, but I think it'd be really sticky for Buffy to do the same - out loud, on TV - without it sounding like she's accepting the blame for almost being raped.

Having a conversation with Dawn or Xander is interesting. I don't know that it would've told us anything we couldn't tell from her nonverbal interactions with Spike, but it would've been nice to know that Buffy did set the record straight with them.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm I don't remember being particularly bothered by it not being addressed on the show. That leaves the audience free to imagine whatever they think needed to happen. Season VII was a pretty tense and busy season - I can see avoidy Buffy not wanting to talk about it, and souled, guilty-feeling Spike not knowing how to. Although, I think it would be fairly easy to take the scene in Beneath You as a prelude to a conversation that may or may not have happened later. Spike getting his soul for her, wallowing in guilt for everything he's done - including things to her, pretty clearly expresses his side of the conversation. That's one hell of an apology. And Buffy is always more inclined to let her actions speak louder than her words, so the fact that she doesn't stake him immediately when she finds him in the basement (although, we already know she wasn't planning to do that from her taking Dawn to him for safekeeping at the end of season VI)and, in fact, lets him back into her life with hardly a ripple pretty much speaks for her. It's easy to imagine an uncomfortable conversation about it, but I don't see why we needed to party to it. Maybe they had it (I probably wrote one somewhere at sometime), maybe they didn't need to because their actions said it all, but I don't think Joss was obligated to show us. Again, he showed us their actions - no need to beat us over the head with "hey, they're all right with each other again". IMHO

ETA : I like Gabriellabelle's idea of a short convo with Xander and/or Dawn. No explanation, just "Get over it - I have".

More ETA: In checking over my season vii fics, I find that I have a Buffy/Xander conversation in which she counters his objections to having Spike around; one fluffy one where it's only mentioned briefly in that he's afraid to touch her without very clear permission; another fluffy one in which they do have the conversation and admissions are made on both sides. I have one in which he tries to tell her he isn't safe and she tells him she's forgiven him, and one in which there is some initial misunderstanding when they first encounter each other and he is sure she's afraid of him and she's sure he doesn't love her anymore. Other than those, in some of which it's barely touched on, I don't think it even gets a mention in any of my other season VII fics. Apparently I didn't think it was a big deal, although I did seem to think it needed to be addressed somewhere with somebody. Sometimes it was Buffy and Spike, and the others it was either Xander or Dawn.

Okay, I'm done now. I have things to do...I'm pretty sure...going off to do them now...

[next_to_normal]

That leaves the audience free to imagine whatever they think needed to happen.

I admit, I usually see the "let the audience imagine" issue as just being lazy writing (like the "Chosen" scene - don't try to tell me that wasn't Joss taking the easy way out). When it's something as major as how the main character feels about her love interest, I don't think there's room for that much ambiguity.

That said, I don't think there was ambiguity in Buffy and Spike's apology and forgiveness. Their actions seem pretty clear to me.

The one thing that troubles me (and it's pretty minor) is that Spike's craziness sort of clouds the issue. How can Buffy not feel sympathy for him when he's like that? It feels like a bit of a cheat - would she treat him the same if he wasn't so pitiable? Or would she have a harder time with him coming back?

[rahirah]

I think... it would be nice if one could be confident that Spike and Buffy were working out a non-verbal and yet perfectly in accord detante on the subject. But there's so much evidence that they spend the season misunderstanding one another on other subjects they don't or can't talk about (culminating in "I love you/No you don't") that I have a hard time seeing why on this one subject their accord should be taken on faith.

So yeah, I do think that talking would have been good at some point. And yeah, it's a very, very difficult subject to talk about without getting all After-School Specially. Buffy did talk about some of this stuff, with Holden, whom she killed immediately afterwards. I think... and I've never thought about this before, but... Buffy in canon either couldn't talk about this stuff to Spike, or wouldn't, and either way, it says that for some things, things really close to her heart, she either didn't trust him, or feared his disapproval. (Which is why, I think, she'd never talk to Dawn or Willow about them.) And after S6, I can't imagine why she would have feared his disapproval; he already knew her worst. But she still couldn't/wouldn't allow herself to be vulnerable to him in any way (until, perhaps, that moment in the Hellmouth, when she had a very reasonable assurance that he, like, Holden, was about to die, and so it didn't matter that she'd bared her soul.)

This is totally un-useful, isn't it?

[next_to_normal]

But there's so much evidence that they spend the season misunderstanding one another on other subjects they don't or can't talk about (culminating in "I love you/No you don't") that I have a hard time seeing why on this one subject their accord should be taken on faith.

Hmmm. I generally agree with you on the miscommunication thing (particularly the I love you/No you don't), but I do think the message here is pretty clear. I don't see how Spike could interpret Buffy's behavior as NOT having forgiven him - I think the problem arises when it comes to taking that step from forgiveness to relationship. Neither is sure if the other wants it (and that makes sense. Forgiveness does not automatically mean "I love you" or even "I want a relationship"), and so neither makes a move.

This is totally un-useful, isn't it?

Heh, no, you make a good point. I think you're right about Buffy not allowing herself to be vulnerable. At the very least, it affirms my premise that Buffy needs some quality therapy in order to properly communicate with Spike. :)

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

but... Buffy in canon either couldn't talk about this stuff to Spike, or wouldn't, and either way, it says that for some things, things really close to her heart, she either didn't trust him, or feared his disapproval. (Which is why, I think, she'd never talk to Dawn or Willow about them.)

This is very useful to me. It's a different picture of Buffy than the previous seasons had established - as someone who absolutely can't talk about what's closest to her heart unless it's immediately going down some kind of memory hole, i.e., the Holden incident - but then I guess that's the point, that she'd become a different character by that point, closed and unavailable.

However, her being closed down hardly prevents other characters from talking to each other about her feelings and speculating about them, much as we viewers were. That's the route I probably would've gone with, especially with a houseful of curious newcomers available. But then the writers never asked me. : )

[deird1]

I'm actually extremely happy with what we actually got...

[next_to_normal]

Damn you, flist! This is one time when I wanted people who disagreed with me, lol.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

It seems like the complaint about the AR is that it's too much to take on faith that Buffy and Spike forgave each other through their unspoken actions. But I think the two most important conversations about this are Spike's in Beneath You (where he admits guilt and begs forgiveness essentially) and Buffy's in Never Leave Me (where she absolves him -

You're alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance...You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man...And you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do. I believe in you, Spike. "

And then she proves her words with actions in Showtime, answering Spike's chant that "she believes in me."

There can definitely be questions as to Buffy's depth of feeling and how much Spike understood it. Especially that he might have doubted her love. But I don't think anyone can say that he doubted her forgiveness. Because her words and her actions spoke this to him loud and clear.

I'm actually satisfied with the Buffy and Spike aspects. The only thing I'd second is gabrielleabelle's suggestion of saying something to Xander or Dawn. But then again, Buffy already did that to Dawn in Him:

DAWN
No, I'm—I'm just trying to understand. I mean, none of it makes sense. First you say Spike disgusts you, but secretly you two are doing it like bunnies. And then Spike says he'd die for you, but he tries to rape you.

BUFFY
(sighs) For the record, Spike knew how wrong it was. That's why he went away.

DAWN
But to get a soul? Like that would make him a better man? Xander had a soul when he stood Anya up at the altar. And now he says he still wants her? I just don't think it's the school basement that's making people crazy.

BUFFY
(sighs) I should really get back. You comin' with? (gathers her things)

But looking at this does bring up something that I desperately missed in S7. The other characters (not Buffy) acknowledging the incredible fact of Spike going to get his soul. Some interaction with the other Scoobies would be welcome with Spike. Though can there ever be straight talk about what the soul means in the Buffyverse?

[next_to_normal]

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear, but I do see Gabs' point that there are plenty of people out there for whom anything less than

Spike: I tried to rape you and it was wrong. I'm sorry.
Buffy: I forgive you.

isn't enough to convince them. (I'd argue that perhaps they don't want to be convinced, but that's a post for another day.) Of course, those people probably don't read my LJ.

Though can there ever be straight talk about what the soul means in the Buffyverse?

My sources say no. Honestly, I'd have loved ANY interaction between Spike and the Scoobies, soul talk or not. Remember when Spike and Dawn used to be friends? Or how Xander and Spike used to be enemies, but oh, now they're not? Or hey, anyone notice that Spike and Willow have something in common now? No? Okay, never mind.

[shapinglight]

Can't really add much to the debate, as I'm happy with what we got. I think Spike telling Buffy in BY that he can't 'say sorry' because what is the point, he can only show his remorse by his actions, pretty much sums up the whole thing and is really all that can be said. I don't think the two of them sitting down and discussing it would help matters at all.

That said, I've dealt with the question of the AR in several Spuffy fics. Can't really write one that doesn't deal with it in some way and can't read fics that ignore it or go au before it. I feel that Spike has to own his guilt and face up to the consequences of his actions, even in fanfic.

[next_to_normal]

I've actually avoided S7 fics for just that reason - I don't want to deal with it, but I can't ignore it, either.

The fic I'm working on now, when I started it two years ago, I had Something To Say about the AR, but now that I've picked it up again, I find that I don't anymore.

[snickfic]

That said, I've dealt with the question of the AR in several Spuffy fics. Can't really write one that doesn't deal with it in some way and can't read fics that ignore it or go au before it.

I totally understand your feelings about not reading fics that ignore the AR. But when you say don't read fics that go AU before it, do you mean that you never read anything AU before "Seeing Red"? Like, cracky S4 Spuffy or alt s6 Spuffy or whatever? Or do you just mean fics that go AU in SR but before the AR?

Now that I say that, the latter interpretation seems by far the likeliest. Duh.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I found Spuffy in S7 to be satisfying. I liked the quiet acceptence and forgiveness they had going on. Obviously, they were closer to each other than the other couples presented in that season.

[next_to_normal]

Very true. I always thought it was interesting that those two got included in the "couples having sex" montages, when they were doing nothing more than gazing into each other's eyes. I think that says a lot about the intensity of their relationship.

[liliaeth]

Personally, I felt the one thing that did get swiped under the table in s7 wasn't the AR, but Buffy's treatment of Spike and specifically her abuse, rape attempt and downright mistreatment of him.

But because no one even considered her as the bad guy, she got away with it. Hell, even Spike never held her behavior against her.

With the AR, you had the way her friends treated him over it, his clear guilt in getting a soul in his search of redemption for it and most of all, the fact that the only reason he didn't ask for forgiveness, is because he didn't think there were words in the world big enough to apologize for it.

What was Buffy's excuse?

[next_to_normal]

What would you have liked to see that would have resolved that? Should Buffy have verbally apologized to Spike? Made some sort of gesture (like Spike getting a soul) that indicated she was sorry? Should Spike have called her on it?

In canon, Spike does seem aware now that her behavior was inappropriate, since he tells Buffy, "You used me," though it's clearly not enough to keep him from loving her or wanting to support her. And Buffy makes a confession of sorts to Holden Webster, as angearia pointed out in the original thread, so it seems she at least recognizes she did something wrong. Knowing that she's not good at saying how she feels, I don't really expect Buffy to talk to anyone who's not about to die, but rather show it in her actions toward Spike.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

They didn't talk about it? In Beneath You it is brought up four times. The first - when Spike appears at the house and Buffy pointedly states, you better not state that you came here to apologize. To wit, Spike says, no, he came to offer help.
And he is careful about it. Then again, with Xander and Dawn.
And again at the hole, with the metaphorical worm. They touch, the rape is referred to in flashback, she shrinks back. He says he gets why she's skittish. She says that's not what she would call it. You tried to rape me. He nods and says, sorry won't cut it, apologize certainly doesn't do the trick (evidence of the soul - because that is what he would have tried before it),
instead he says I've changed. But he doesn't tell her how.
Instead looking into the hole - he says, nothing there.
A metaphorical reference to the beastie being gone.

Beneath You is about Seeing Red. They discuss it through a series of metaphors. It's also about Hell's Bells. Ronnie or whatever his name is, worm boy, turns out to be just a boy, who was demonized by his ex, the girl he stalked, the girl he stood up, the girl he attacked. She saw him as a worm, he became a worm. But he's not a worm.

Buffy sees Spike as a worm, beneath her, and she enters the church, stake in hand and he tells her that he got a soul. When she asks why, he says in poetic verse...shame on you Buffy, why does a man do what he mustn't for her, to be hers, ...I got the soul to be forgiven, to be loved. So I can rest. Now. He has a bloody death wish.

Then later, they talk about it again - in Him, when Buffy tells Dawn that he realized he knew he did something wrong - hence the soul. And before that they talk about it in Help - where
Buffy goes to Spike and asks him who is hurting Cassie. Spike is hitting himself - because he hurt the girl, he hurt her and is a bad bad man, deserves to be punished. She grabs his fist and gently says no, its not her. When he begs her to stay, she says she fears she is just making it worse.

Then again it is brought up in Conversations with Dead People - when she talks to Webs. And in Sleeper. And in Never Leave Me - when he accuses her of not killing him to bring on the pain.
And he states what he has done to girls, what he is.

What more do you want? I've seen it handled in numerous ways in daytime soap operas, romance novels and fanfic, this one I felt was the most realistic and fit the characters. When you do something that horrific, you can't just sit down and discuss it. Anymore than Buffy and Angel sit down and discuss Jenny's death or Angel becoming Angelus or Angel going to hell. It's referred to and dealt with but in much the way as described above.

[next_to_normal]

What more do you want?

Me personally? Nothing. As I said, I'm satisfied with what we got on screen. My post was directed at those who aren't satisfied, in order to understand what they feel is lacking.

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

I don't really have a problem with it actually except where it concerns Dawn and the Scoobies. It was not their business but had been MADE their business and Buffy allowed that instead of telling them to buzz off about it.

I think Buffy understood WHY Spike went for that soul. It was partly to punish. For all Spike knew of a souled vampire....Angel and his description of how it felt and worked... Spike was looking at suicide in a way. He had Angel's acting like he was a separate being with that soul (and even the feigned IMHO loss of memory of Angelus's actions when re-ensouled). He risked actual death in the trials too. He undertook the soul quest also to ensure (in his mind) that he would not hurt her again because so much had been made of the soul = good idea. Buffy understood that and it WAS an apology of the real sort...it was penance not empty words. She saw the look on his face in the bathroom and knew he immediately regretted his actions too.

I think they both apologized for bad behavior in non-verbal ways. Buffy never apologized for that beat down but Spike knew she regretted it and forgave just as she eventually understood what led to the AR (more mixed signals than evil intent) and forgave.

I WOULD have loved Buffy to say to Xander and Dawn that the issue was between Spike and her, far more complex than one incident and none of their business though. There was a slight touching of that in Him when she spoke to Dawn but not enough for as often as the issue was referred to by non-participants. But that is Buffy...she is kick ass physically but strangely avoids conflict of a verbal nature where her friends are concerned.

I can live without that though and think they both showed the forgiveness in their actions in S7 in non-verbal ways and with this pair....that was the safest choice. Both had such a bad habit of inserting foot in mouth when they tried to put feelings into words.
It was in character IMHO.

Kathleen

[next_to_normal]

I WOULD have loved Buffy to say to Xander and Dawn that the issue was between Spike and her, far more complex than one incident and none of their business though.

I can understand that, but on the other hand, if it were my friend who'd almost been raped, I'd put up a stink if the guy who did it tried to come back into her life.

I'm not sure what Buffy needs to say, though. Despite their personal feelings, Xander and Dawn still follow her lead in accepting Spike back. He's allowed to join them in "Beneath You," despite reservations, simply because Buffy says so (even before they know about the soul). Xander allows Spike to live with him at Buffy's request, and although Dawn raises concerns in "Him," she doesn't tell Buffy that Spike needs to go or shouldn't be in her life, just that she doesn't understand Buffy's feelings.

I don't see how either of them are "making it their business," except that they are rightfully concerned about their sister and friend. Certainly neither of them go as far as Giles did in trying to go behind Buffy's back to get rid of him. If they hadn't shown some concern, I'd wonder how much they really cared about Buffy.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Joining late, but I think I just would've wanted some discussions about the soul. Not so much Spike's soul in particular, or what it meant that he went to get it, but what a soul, in the generic sense, really is, or does, and what it does or doesn't excuse.

And to clarify: I wouldn't even have expected any definitive answers on the topic, no dictionary definitions ala Jossverse. It just struck me as highly implausible, especially after S6, that none of the characters wanted to have those conversations, that they wouldn't have had some awkward trading of stories and opinions about the nature of evil, blah blah blah. (I kinda felt the same way after Buffy came back from the dead - I mean, if you knew someone who could confirm what the afterlife is like, wouldn't that be fairly life-altering knowledge?)

[next_to_normal]

I agree, those kinds of questions were lacking. I think, though, that Joss was reluctant to even open the can of worms with a discussion (maybe because that would mean admitting they didn't really know?).

I kinda felt the same way after Buffy came back from the dead - I mean, if you knew someone who could confirm what the afterlife is like, wouldn't that be fairly life-altering knowledge?

You would think, although at least in that case I can see an in-character reason for not asking. At first, they all thought Buffy was in a hell dimension, and presumed it was too difficult for her to talk about it. Then, they found out she was in heaven, but now they feel guilty for bringing her back, so they don't want to remind her of what they took away by asking what it's like.