Where are the female anti-heroes?

[next_to_normal]

I was listening to the Firewall & Iceberg Podcast today, and one of the topics they addressed was the fan reaction to the wives of anti-hero characters. Think Betty Draper, Skyler White, or Carmella Soprano - in any other context, they'd be the sympathetic partner, even considered a victim, but because their husbands (despicable as they may be) are the show's main characters, the women tend to get a lot of hate for (a) inadvertently complicating the husbands' secret lives, (b) trying to find out their secrets, and/or (c) daring to call them on their shit. As if wanting to know what your husband is hiding from you is an unreasonable expectation. As if being appalled is an inappropriate response to the revelation that he is a murderer/drug dealer/mob boss/cheater/scumbag/whatever.

Okay, preaching to the choir here, I know. Anyway, the comment that prompted this post was wondering whether the reaction would be the same if it were a female character who was the anti-hero, and her husband/partner was the one standing in the way of her criminal enterprise, or if their respective genders matter. Now, the podcast is made by dudes, so I'll forgive them for not knowing the obvious answer (yes, of course gender matters) and skip right to what I think is most interesting:

This is entirely a hypothetical question, because as far as I can tell, there are no female anti-heroes like that, much less ones with a hated spouse/partner to use as a comparison.

Seriously - can anyone think of one? Because I'd probably really like that story. The closest I can come up with is Veronica Mars, who's a ruthless and occasionally cruel person who has no qualms about breaking the law to get what she wants. The parallel is strongest in season 3 - before that, she's still the plucky, albeit flawed, heroine, whereas in season 3 she becomes flat-out unlikable at times. But even then, I don't think she ever reaches the level of a Don Draper or a Walter White.

Similarly, characters like Katniss or Buffy or Elena, although they may go through unlikable phases, never lose their "heroine" sheen. They're just good people going through remarkably difficult situations. And frequently THEY are the ones who get the fan hate, not their put-upon male partners, which goes back to the thing about gender influencing fan reactions.

I suppose that answers my own question about why there aren't more female characters that could be considered anti-heroes, doesn't it? If fans will react so negatively to flawed female heroines, God only knows how badly they'd eviscerate a female Don Draper. But y'all know how I love me some flawed characters, especially ladies, so if you can think of any - or have any other thoughts on the subject - please chime in!

Comments

[goldenusagi]

I haven't seen Weeds, but isn't that about a woman who deals drugs?

I haven't seen Nurse Jackie, either, but she doesn't seem to be that shining.

Someone else chime in and tell me if I'm even close, lol.

Oh, and there's always Xena. She has to count for something. She's not a good person going through a remarkable situation.

[chaila]

I'd count both Patty Hewes on Damages and Jackie Peyton on Nurse Jackie as anti-heroes. And I LOVE both shows. (They are both extremely lady centric too in the supporting characters. The "main" relationship in both shows is between two lades--sometimes partners, sometimes rivals on Damages, and friends on Nurse Jackie). They are undoubtedly not "good" people, but of course it's way more complicated than that. Sometimes they do good things in really awful ways, sometimes they have good motives, sometimes it's hard to tell. They're selfish and destructive, except for when they're not.

They're both married (and both marriages are extremely difficult). I wish I had more brain power and less spoilers with which to dissect each relationship, but both husbands sort of...interefere in the anti-heroism or judge it, and the relationship suffers for it. But their husbands definitely don't get hatred from the fandoms. Um, such as they are--the fandoms for both are pretty much non-existent, and speculating why just makes me sad. The fandoms are actually too tiny to even describe patterns, because if I say, "In the Nurse Jackie fandom, I've actually seen slash shipping involving the husband," that means I've seen two people do it. So yeah, I guess the takeway is, we can't even really compare the reactions to the husbands because 1) there aren't enough shows with female anti-heroes, and 2) there aren't enough people talking about those shows to really observe reactions to the husbands. :(

This has been a depressing comment. The shows are awesome though! :D

[pocochina]

ooooh, excellent point.

I think Dollhouse does some interesting meta-commentary on this very point with Adelle, and how being aware of her anti-heroine occupation means she has to program herself a man if she wants one who's not as deep in it all as she is.

I might cast Caprica Six as a borderline case, because she becomes such an influential character? But I don't think it's the same because she's not conceived as central in the way the Walters and Tonys are.

[eilowyn1]

What about Kate from Lost? She's always wanting to bolt the minute things get serious, and I think some of the tension in the Jack-Kate-Sawyer triangle is that Jack would stop her from doing something bad for good outcomes, while Sawyer would understand that sometimes you have to do bad to do good. I can't think of any outright instances, but characterization-wise - Kate burned down her own house so her mother could get the insurance money. She's willing to do the less pleasant things if it has a good outcome, and so we have this love triangle where it's the hero vs. the anti-hero in her that's drawn to both men.

[ruuger]

You know, I was thinking of this exact same thing when I watched The Avengers because the way everyone was talking about Black Widow, I thought she was going to be one (of the working towards redemption kind at least). And I was really excited about that, because borderline-sociopath-formerly-evil-heroes are my thing! But no, she vaguely talked about the horrible things that she'd done, but not once was there even a slightest suggestion that she might be anything less than a straight-up hero now.

I'd say Jackie in Nurse Jackie definitely counts as an antihero, since she's basically the female equivalent of House, maybe also Kerry Weaver on ER (she started off as an antagonists but was definitely one of Our Heroes by the end). Bad Girls, which is a British show about a women's prison also had several characters that I think would count.

But those are all in drama. It's harder to think of examples from 'manlier' genres. Sarah Connor in T2, maybe? I think scifi and action movies are so geared towards the male gaze that women still aren't generally allowed any other roles than the victim/lover or the (Sexy) Spinny Killbot - the moral scale on a female characters seems to be usually determined on simply how willingly they use their sexuality and 'feminine wiles' to get what they want...

[gabrielleabelle]

Does Lilah count? Though I guess she's more a villain turned sympathetic than an anti-hero. Hrm.

[ever_neutral]

The character my mind jumps to is Emily Thorne on Revenge. She's definitely not a heroine. She's actively plotting the destruction of other people's lives. Because, revenge.

Oh, and she has a thing for a "good boy" who's an innocent and whom she actively deceives in order to ~protect them.

How's that one for you?

[mikeda]

A rather belated thought. Perhaps Sarah Michelle Gellar's character Bridget Kelly from "Ringer" somewhat qualifies. Granted she is portrayed somewhat sympathetically but she's still put herself in a position where she has to lie on a grand scale to just about everyone around her.