next_to_normal (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
next_to_normal) wrote2010-07-31 07:23 pm
next_to_normal) wrote2010-07-31 07:23 pm
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Male Feminists?
So, the other day, ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
gabrielleabelle made a post questioning the labeling of Angel as a feminist icon. The general consensus, not surprisingly, is that Angel is NOT the feminist icon we are looking for. But it did make me wonder - are there ANY male feminist icons in popular culture? I can't think of any.
Okay. "Icon" is a pretty high bar. How about just a portrayal of a male feminist character? Any medium. How many can you think of?
I'm also includinggingerwall's list of criteria from the same post, just for reference. Your criteria may be different (I expect the third one is particularly difficult to find in pop culture, which might eliminate everybody, lol), but I thought it might be helpful for people who want guidelines.
Here would be my qualifications for the Best Male Feminist Role Model in All of Everything Ever:
- Let the women in his life be autonomous agents and make their own decisions.
- Listen to and carefully consider what women have to say about issues that affect both of them.
- Be aware of how organizations that he is a part of contribute to the oppression of the women in his life and work to change or protest those cultures, all the while getting feedback from those women to make sure he is accurately reflecting their lived experience.
- Encourage the women in his life to defy traditional gender roles and take on powerful positions, even at the expense of his own control and power.
gabrielleabelle made a post questioning the labeling of Angel as a feminist icon. The general consensus, not surprisingly, is that Angel is NOT the feminist icon we are looking for. But it did make me wonder - are there ANY male feminist icons in popular culture? I can't think of any.Okay. "Icon" is a pretty high bar. How about just a portrayal of a male feminist character? Any medium. How many can you think of?
I'm also including
gingerwall's list of criteria from the same post, just for reference. Your criteria may be different (I expect the third one is particularly difficult to find in pop culture, which might eliminate everybody, lol), but I thought it might be helpful for people who want guidelines. Here would be my qualifications for the Best Male Feminist Role Model in All of Everything Ever:
- Let the women in his life be autonomous agents and make their own decisions.
- Listen to and carefully consider what women have to say about issues that affect both of them.
- Be aware of how organizations that he is a part of contribute to the oppression of the women in his life and work to change or protest those cultures, all the while getting feedback from those women to make sure he is accurately reflecting their lived experience.
- Encourage the women in his life to defy traditional gender roles and take on powerful positions, even at the expense of his own control and power.
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Which is something I've never denied once in this conversation. Nor have I asked you to prove it's not there, because I know that's impossible. I've been talking about evidence and the balance of probabilities, while now you seem to be saying that because Giles is a man and we live in a sexist society, his treatment of Buffy MUST be because of his presumed sexism. And if I disagree with the 'must' in that sentence, now I'm apparently challenging the existence of sexism at all, and you're both explaining to me things I already know perfectly well.
What about if I say this:
"Giles's behaviour in LMPTM reflects sexist stereotypes about women being made irrational by their emotions, and by playing off them the storyline may unfortunately reinforce such ideas. On the other hand, by the end of the episode Giles was shown to be wrong in his beliefs while Buffy's faith in Spike was fully vindicated and therefore shown to be not irrational at all.
"However, in the past Giles has shown full confidence in Buffy's judgement, including for the most part her choice of romantic partners*. While it's not impossible that sexism lies behind his lapse in support for her, it seems likely that the near-panicky desperation he felt in the face of The First, and his fear that none of the Scoobies were taking the situation seriously enough**, were more important motivations. It could also be that, having mentored her since she was 16, he also has a tendency to still see her as a child and believe he should override her wishes in her own "best interests". It wouldn't be the first time he's done that, either***, but note that it's a pattern of behaviour he doesn't demonstrate with other women such as Willow**** or Faith***** whom he's never had a quasi-paternal role with."
Is that an acceptable compromise?
* Early season 3 is an exception to that: Giles was perfectly accepting of Buffy's choice to have a relationship with a vampire in S1, but had second thoughts after Angel murdered Jenny and tortured him. He still seemed to come around to grudging acceptance again eventually, though.
** 'First Date'
*** 'The Gift'
**** He has, in fact, been severely criticised for letting Willow get on with her dabbling in magic without attempting to intervene and supervise her more closely.
***** 'Empty Places'
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Don't make me freeze this thread.
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