Male Feminists?

[next_to_normal]

So, the other day, gabrielleabelle made a post questioning the labeling of Angel as a feminist icon. The general consensus, not surprisingly, is that Angel is NOT the feminist icon we are looking for. But it did make me wonder - are there ANY male feminist icons in popular culture? I can't think of any.

Okay. "Icon" is a pretty high bar. How about just a portrayal of a male feminist character? Any medium. How many can you think of?

I'm also including gingerwall's list of criteria from the same post, just for reference. Your criteria may be different (I expect the third one is particularly difficult to find in pop culture, which might eliminate everybody, lol), but I thought it might be helpful for people who want guidelines.

Here would be my qualifications for the Best Male Feminist Role Model in All of Everything Ever:
- Let the women in his life be autonomous agents and make their own decisions.
- Listen to and carefully consider what women have to say about issues that affect both of them.
- Be aware of how organizations that he is a part of contribute to the oppression of the women in his life and work to change or protest those cultures, all the while getting feedback from those women to make sure he is accurately reflecting their lived experience.
- Encourage the women in his life to defy traditional gender roles and take on powerful positions, even at the expense of his own control and power.

Comments

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

"If someone (a) doesn't have a pattern of sexist behaviour in the past, and (b) doesn't make it clear that they're acting out of sexism in this particular case - then yeah, I'd say it is impossible to prove one way or the other. "

This is you setting the standards for sexism in this conversation.

This is me saying your standards are insufficient and coming from a place of privilege. Also, not in line with feminism.

What I am denying, which is what you seem not to accept, is just because something could be X, then it therefore must be X.

What you're telling me is that unless we have explicit proof that Giles' actions are directly linked to sexist ideals, I can't call that sexism? Do you realize how limiting that is? How dangerous that is? That's how men have weaseled out of shit for centuries.

If that's the case, then I should hang my feminist hat up. I can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 'Game for Boys' I saw in the museum gift shop is sexist. It could be. But hey, I don't know. They could have completely pure and gender-blind motivations, right?

Hell, Warren could have been completely egalitarian when he told Katrina "Because you deserved it, bitch" in Villains. He might well have said that even if she were a man. I can't prove that he's a misogynist because he never explicitly said, "I hate and resent women."

And, hey, Mel Gibson has never explicitly said that he hates women, either. So when he tells his ex-girlfriend that she should just smile and blow him, I can't really leap to the conclusion that he's sexist. I mean, he could, certainly. But I can't say for certain, so let's just not discuss it.

Congrats, you've rendered feminist critique completely ineffective. Nothing's sexist anymore. Yay.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

What you're telling me is that unless we have explicit proof that Giles' actions are directly linked to sexist ideals, I can't call that sexism?

I'm quite happy with saying that it's typically sexist behaviour, or that it reflects sexist stereotypes. You could even criticise the writers for putting together an episode that reinforces hostile sexual typecasting, although the fact that Buffy turns out to be vindicated in the final act works against that. My hesitation is over saying that sexism MUST be the reason in an individual case, when there are other possible explanations.

Also, for the record, I'm not telling you what you can call anything. I'm saying I will disagree with your opinion if you call it X. Big difference. :-)


Do you realize how limiting that is? How dangerous that is? That's how men have weaseled out of shit for centuries.

Yes, but nowadays, "Oh, those women blame everything on sexism. Men just can't win with them, so why bother even discussing it?" is how modern men weasel out of confronting sexism. That's a big reason why I've been pursuing this discussion instead of just letting it drop, because deep in my heart I don't want that to be true, and it's felt uncomfortably like that that IS what the two of you are arguing.


I can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 'Game for Boys' I saw in the museum gift shop is sexist. It could be. But hey, I don't know. They could have completely pure and gender-blind motivations, right?

It seems unlikely. The act of putting "...for Boys" on the box doesn't sound like a gender-blind action to me. The most you can say in their defence is that their decision might be purely commercial, if market research found that targeting the product specifically at boys brought in more sales than making it gender-neutral. That still mean they're perpetuating sexist stereotypes even if it's not out of personally-held beliefs; they've just decided that pleasing their shareholders is more important than making a better society.


Hell, Warren could have been completely egalitarian when he told Katrina "Because you deserved it, bitch" in Villains. He might well have said that even if she were a man. I can't prove that he's a misogynist.

No, but you can bring forward numerous other examples of him treating women badly or making derogatory comments about them. Eventually the evidence becomes overwhelming. My point with Giles was that unlike with Warren, you can't bring forward a matching number of episodes where he belittles Buffy or deliberately undermines her, to suggest that it's a pattern with him caused by his underlying personality traits rather then being the product of specific circumstances.


And, hey, Mel Gibson has never explicitly said that he hates women, either. So when he tells his ex-girlfriend that she should just smile and blow him, I can't really leap to the conclusion that he's sexist.

Do you not see a distinction between questioning a woman's judgement as a leader in a particular crisis situation, and thinking that her only purpose in life is to shut up and give men blowjobs?


Congrats, you've rendered feminist critique completely ineffective. Nothing's sexist anymore. Yay.

I hope my reply has convinced you I don't believe that. :-) Thanks for the thoughtful post.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

My hesitation is over saying that sexism MUST be the reason in an individual case, when there are other possible explanations.

And my issue is that this is exactly the type of problem feminism faces every damn time it tries to point out sexism.

Also, for the record, I'm not telling you what you can call anything. I'm saying I will disagree with your opinion if you call it X. Big difference.

Sexism isn't a matter of opinion. pocochina posted this link (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/04/feminism-101-sexism-is-matter-of.html) in the comments to my LJ recently. It's quite nifty.

Yes, but nowadays, "Oh, those women blame everything on sexism. Men just can't win with them, so why bother even discussing it?" is how modern men weasel out of confronting sexism. That's a big reason why I've been pursuing this discussion instead of just letting it drop, because deep in my heart I don't want that to be true, and it's felt uncomfortably like that that IS what the two of you are arguing.

So you're using what you confess to be a weaseling tactic to engage in a dialogue and you're, what, surprised that it's pissing a couple feminists off?

Do you not see a distinction between questioning a woman's judgement as a leader in a particular crisis situation, and thinking that her only purpose in life is to shut up and give men blowjobs?

Do you not see that that's not the point of the example?

Dude, you've been around feminist discourse long enough to know this shit. No event happens in a vacuum. Giles explicitly countermanding Buffy's authority, allying with a horribly biased man in order to carry out what he thinks is the right thing to do, all after six years of building up Buffy's independence as a Slayer and as a woman...

I don't care that there may be a chance that Giles' motives were absolutely pure. It doesn't matter. It's a sexist act because it falls in line with so many sexist tropes. Intent doesn't matter. Giles fucked up in a sexist way. To have you come in here and advocate for him ad nauseum, lecturing us to just give him the benefit of the doubt is fucked up.

It's a feminist discussion. We're looking at things from a feminist lens. A lens that recognizes that we live in a patriarchy and that most people are going to act in sexist ways at some point or another. When one person's actions appear to be sexist? We're gonna call it sexist. To do otherwise is to start ignoring actions that have sexist repercussions that eventually harm women just because the person doing the action doesn't have a history with that or is an otherwise egalitarian guy. No.

When Giles does something that undercuts Buffy's hard-earned authority - a very feminist role for her to be in - he's hurting women as a class. When he does so because he doesn't trust her judgment in regards to a man - a very old and harmful cultural meme - he's hurting women as a class. When he prioritizes the rationale of the man with a grudge over the woman who has consistently made the right calls, he's hurting women. Whether he sat down and thought, "Huh. Buffy's a silly girl who can't think straight. I think I shall undermine her." doesn't matter. What matters are that his actions play into explicit sexist cultural tropes and they have the ultimate effect of harming women as a class.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

And now I see Eowyn's reply a couple threads down. Whoops. Apologies. I would delete my reply out of courtesy but I just...kinda like it so I'll let it stand.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

LOL! ICON ♥

Yes, I've been following this discussion from the sidelines.

[next_to_normal]

No need to apologize. You're not the one who was pissing me off. :)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I was going to say "Thanks for replying but eowyn asked me to drop the subject, and I agreed" but you've seen that now anyway. If you want to continue the discussion by email/PM or whatever let me know but at this stage I won't be sorry or surprised to let it go.