next_to_normal | Male Feminists?

So, the other day,

gabrielleabelle made a post questioning the labeling of Angel as a feminist icon. The general consensus, not surprisingly, is that Angel is NOT the feminist icon we are looking for. But it did make me wonder - are there ANY male feminist icons in popular culture? I can't think of any.

Okay. "Icon" is a pretty high bar. How about just a portrayal of a male feminist character? Any medium. How many can you think of?

I'm also including

gingerwall's list of criteria from the same post, just for reference. Your criteria may be different (I expect the third one is particularly difficult to find in pop culture, which might eliminate everybody, lol), but I thought it might be helpful for people who want guidelines.

Here would be my qualifications for the Best Male Feminist Role Model in All of Everything Ever:
- Let the women in his life be autonomous agents and make their own decisions.
- Listen to and carefully consider what women have to say about issues that affect both of them.
- Be aware of how organizations that he is a part of contribute to the oppression of the women in his life and work to change or protest those cultures, all the while getting feedback from those women to make sure he is accurately reflecting their lived experience.
- Encourage the women in his life to defy traditional gender roles and take on powerful positions, even at the expense of his own control and power.

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I think I agree with this. He's initially over-protective of her (Vampires in Venice), but I think he learns to get over that by the end of the series (though I guess we really need to see how next season goes about that). But his basic story is that of him joining Amy's adventures, not the other way around, which is good. Plus, their story together has the message of "being married does not mean the woman having to give up her goals and adventures and settle down," which I can really get behind.

Here's a question: What about Captain Jack Harkness? He definitely respects strong women as a general rule, but I'm not sure about doing so at the expense of his own control and power. He certainly makes decision for others on Torchwood. I feel like maybe he works on Doctor Who (where he's position as having less power than The Doctor, ie. not in charge), but not on Torchwood, where his position of power and immortality angst makes him override other people's decisions more.

Likewise, The Doctor also treats strong women with respect and wants them to be their own people and take on positions of power, but his own control issues makes him problematic.

Hmm, to give a verdict on Jack, I'd probably have to rewatch Torchwood, which I have no desire to do, lol. You might want to read

pocochina's analysis of Jack, which I thought was interesting.

I kind of think that Jack, the Doctor, and even Angel all suffer from the same problem - they're hundreds of years older than their peers and that makes them patronizing toward the young'uns they work with. Angel, at least, definitely discriminates against women in addition to that, but even if they don't, "patronizing to everybody" isn't exactly a sterling quality, lol.

I think think the age issue is a really good point. Given that they are going to have that "I'm older and wiser" quality, I think the Doctor and Jack are decent in relationship to women -- but that's a pretty damn big given.

It's often, IMO, the same with father-figures, actually. Like, as mentioned above, given that he is a Watcher who also takes on a surrogate-father role to Buffy, Giles is a pretty good example, but that given comes with a number of problematic caveats. Jack Bristow (Alias) was another example that came to mind -- he basically respects women (including his daughter) and their autonomy (and ass-kicking ability, when applicable), but he also has "protective father" mode (plus the, "I'm a spy, so lots of secrets," thing), which means he ends up making decisions for Sydney and keeping her in the dark on important issues, so he doesn't really pass muster.

Yeah, it's one of those things where I'd say, in a perfect world where there is no systemic sexism, it'd be okay to dismiss it as "oh, well, they're just like that with everybody." But in this very imperfect world, portraying men as patronizing women is inevitably going to be problematic, regardless of the context or mitigating factors.

Yep, yep! Really, context is SO important. There are a relatively large number of male characters who I think basically treat women with the same respect they treat men, but because of their position (either literal job/family position or in terms of narrative position), the way they act towards certain female characters still ends up being too problematic to count as a "feminist male character."

I keep thinking of Phillip Broyles from Fringe as another example of this. He definitely respects strong women, and if he were a real person, I wouldn't be surprised if he identified as a feminist, or at least agreed that women should be treated as equal to men. But because he is Olivia's boss, part of his function in the narrative is to sometimes reprimand her, sometimes withhold information, sometimes tell her what to do, etc. So, even though we see that he respects and even admires Olivia, I still can't call him a feminist character. As you say, if this were a perfect world, I could just say, "well, he's her boss, that's his job, but he does respect her, so it's cool." But...it's not a perfect world. So the fact that he is a male character who tells a strong female protagonist that her choices are wrong on a semi-regular basis is problematic.

Though, this makes me think: Peter Bishop? Maybe? He respects Olivia and Astrid, more or less. I watched Fringe in a big rush, so I'd have to think about this more, but he definitely has some potential, at least.

I could maybe see Peter, although my instinct is to say that he has a tendency to want to protect Olivia, despite her being the one with the FBI training. I can't think of specific examples off the top of my head (it's weird how sometimes if you're not looking for this stuff, you completely don't notice it) but that's the general impression I have.

Yeah, that's why I'm iffy on him -- I also can't think of examples where he's protective, but I feel like they are there. Also, given the number of emotional hang-ups he had, he's also not the best about talking over decisions he's making that will effect both of them (or both him and Astrid), especially re: Walter.

Hmm, but is his instinct noticeably stronger than his urge to protect Peter? Doesn't Peter also frequently depend upon Olivia for protection himself?

Honestly, I've only watched smatterings of Fringe. I think there is some paternalism there, but I haven't really examined it.

I think it's similar to Buffy and Angel's relationship, actually. Olivia (as the one with the FBI training) is more than capable of protecting herself, but Peter still feels the need to protect her anyway. I don't think Peter is nearly as paternalistic as Angel (frankly, I think he protects Olivia mostly because he's in love with her), but if the genders were reversed and you had a male FBI agent and a female civilian, it'd seem ridiculous to have the woman wanting to protect the man when they're in danger.

Male Feminists?

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