S7 Spuffy pondering

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Yesterday, snickfic made a post on the things she doesn't like about Spike in S7. I'll just copy the relevant point here:

The non-discussion of the AR. It is the huge purple elephant in the room in S7, rarely referred to but entirely overshadowing Spike and Buffy's relationship. I wish they'd actually talked it out sometime, even if we didn't see much of the discussion on screen. Just a hint that this was something that they were working through and moving on from would have been helpful.

In the comments, angearia asked a very good question, which is: "What discussion of the AR would be satisfying? What needs to be said to make it work?"

And so I'm curious. I've seen plenty of people express displeasure with the way the AR (or even the entire S6 Spuffy relationship in general) was brushed aside in S7, but I don't know that I've ever seen anyone answer Emmie's question of what would make it better. (This may or may not be relevant to a fic idea I'm working on, but I ask more out of curiosity than anything else, as one who doesn't have a problem with what we were given.)

It seems like a difficult question to answer, since there's no real life equivalent to going and getting a soul, but are there expectations that Spike - or Buffy, for that matter - need to meet to make it "okay" for them to pursue a relationship again? Are verbal apologies and forgiveness necessary, or do actions speak louder than words? What is it that people find lacking about the way it was addressed on the show?

Comments

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What would you have liked to see that would have resolved that? Should Buffy have verbally apologized to Spike? Made some sort of gesture (like Spike getting a soul) that indicated she was sorry? Should Spike have called her on it?

In canon, Spike does seem aware now that her behavior was inappropriate, since he tells Buffy, "You used me," though it's clearly not enough to keep him from loving her or wanting to support her. And Buffy makes a confession of sorts to Holden Webster, as angearia pointed out in the original thread, so it seems she at least recognizes she did something wrong. Knowing that she's not good at saying how she feels, I don't really expect Buffy to talk to anyone who's not about to die, but rather show it in her actions toward Spike.

[liliaeth]

Thing is, I expected her to tell at least Dawn what she had done. Not to someone like Holden that she expected to kill right after, but to someone who mattered. I wanted her to tell Xander that Spike was as much of a victim that year as he thinks she was.

I just wanted her to take her responsibility.

But then I'm still annoyed that the rape attempt in Gone, where Spike had to kick Buffy out of his crypt, was treated as a joke, while when he finally breaks, we're suddenly supposed to see him as the bad guy.

I'm usually on the side of the victim in any kind of dealing with rape, but in s6, Spike was clearly the victim. And yeah, I get that it's because she was suffering from severe depression. I get all the reasons, but just because the scoobies and Giles treated her like crap and abandoned her that year when she needed their help the most, is no reason for her not to take her responsibility and at least admit her fault in what happened to someone that actually matters from her point of view.

Because admitting she was in fault to Holden quite simply doesn't count.

[next_to_normal]

But then I'm still annoyed that the rape attempt in Gone, where Spike had to kick Buffy out of his crypt, was treated as a joke

I'll have to disagree with you there, as I don't see it as a rape attempt. Perhaps questionable consent, but we don't see enough of the scene to definitively say there was a lack of consent in order to call it rape.

I'd also disagree that Spike was "clearly the victim" in S6. They both played a role in the unhealthy relationship, and both hold some responsibility for not ending the destructive cycle. Furthermore, I absolutely cannot agree that anything Buffy did prior to the AR makes her any less of a victim of attempted rape.

[liliaeth]

I don't say that it makes her any less of a victim of attempted rape. It was, without a doubt. What I am saying, is that there's a difference in depiction of both cases, the one in Gone, and the one in Seeing Red. Not to mention Willow's rape of Tara thorugh the use of magic/daterape drugs in All the Way, and OMWF.

Spike did wrong, he felt remorse and he should, because there is no excuse. But Buffy did wrong too, and unlike Spike, she NEVER truly took responsibility for her actions.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

That's not exactly true. In Conversations With Dead People - she does take responsibility for her actions and is feeling ambivalent about killing vampires - it almost gets the better of her in her fight with Webs. And she also takes responsibility for them in Never Leave Me. She admits that she treated him like a monster and she admits that she is afraid of what her friends would think of her if they knew.

I'm not sure what you want, exactly? For Buffy to be punished and ostracized? She is. They kick her out of the house, although not for that. And they do judge her harshly for sleeping with Spike - although not for the reasons you want them to. It would be out of character for them to do it.

And Gone wasn't rape. Spike was a willing participant. But as she states to Tara in her confession in Dead Things - "Using him? How is that okay? How is that alright, in any way?"

So yes, she did take responsibility in as much as most people tend to. She did pay. And she does tragically watch her lover burn in front of her eyes. What did you want? A full-blown confession in front of the Scoobies?