next_to_normal (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
next_to_normal) wrote2009-07-24 01:58 pm
next_to_normal) wrote2009-07-24 01:58 pm
Entry tags:
S7 Spuffy pondering
Yesterday, ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
snickfic made a post on the things she doesn't like about Spike in S7. I'll just copy the relevant point here:
The non-discussion of the AR. It is the huge purple elephant in the room in S7, rarely referred to but entirely overshadowing Spike and Buffy's relationship. I wish they'd actually talked it out sometime, even if we didn't see much of the discussion on screen. Just a hint that this was something that they were working through and moving on from would have been helpful.
In the comments,angearia asked a very good question, which is: "What discussion of the AR would be satisfying? What needs to be said to make it work?"
And so I'm curious. I've seen plenty of people express displeasure with the way the AR (or even the entire S6 Spuffy relationship in general) was brushed aside in S7, but I don't know that I've ever seen anyone answer Emmie's question of what would make it better. (This may or may not be relevant to a fic idea I'm working on, but I ask more out of curiosity than anything else, as one who doesn't have a problem with what we were given.)
It seems like a difficult question to answer, since there's no real life equivalent to going and getting a soul, but are there expectations that Spike - or Buffy, for that matter - need to meet to make it "okay" for them to pursue a relationship again? Are verbal apologies and forgiveness necessary, or do actions speak louder than words? What is it that people find lacking about the way it was addressed on the show?
snickfic made a post on the things she doesn't like about Spike in S7. I'll just copy the relevant point here:The non-discussion of the AR. It is the huge purple elephant in the room in S7, rarely referred to but entirely overshadowing Spike and Buffy's relationship. I wish they'd actually talked it out sometime, even if we didn't see much of the discussion on screen. Just a hint that this was something that they were working through and moving on from would have been helpful.
In the comments,
angearia asked a very good question, which is: "What discussion of the AR would be satisfying? What needs to be said to make it work?"And so I'm curious. I've seen plenty of people express displeasure with the way the AR (or even the entire S6 Spuffy relationship in general) was brushed aside in S7, but I don't know that I've ever seen anyone answer Emmie's question of what would make it better. (This may or may not be relevant to a fic idea I'm working on, but I ask more out of curiosity than anything else, as one who doesn't have a problem with what we were given.)
It seems like a difficult question to answer, since there's no real life equivalent to going and getting a soul, but are there expectations that Spike - or Buffy, for that matter - need to meet to make it "okay" for them to pursue a relationship again? Are verbal apologies and forgiveness necessary, or do actions speak louder than words? What is it that people find lacking about the way it was addressed on the show?
no subject
They do have a beautiful friendship in late S5/early S6, but this has already deteriorated a bit by Buffy's return. Your fic having them interact in Older and Far Away - it's odd how they don't interact during that episode. Actually, I think Dawn has reason to be angry with Spike long before the AR. Because we never see Buffy explicitly tell Spike to stay away from Dawn, do we? That's fanon. We just see Spike stop seeking Dawn out and we see Dawn feeling incredibly lonely, pushed the brink by being ignored (shoplifting, making dangerous wishes). All Dawn's primary caregivers ignore her during Season 6 - Buffy, Spike and Tara. Though Tara's is an enforced distance, like an abused wife leaving in order to protect herself and only getting to visit every other weekend. At least we seen an effort being made by Tara. Buffy tries at times and fails other times. With Spike - all we have is presumably his absorption with Buffy. It's not like he's doing anything that season besides helping Buffy, sleeping with her and apparently running an international arms business (/sarcasm at the last bit).
no subject
Denial about what? That she doesn't care about Spike anymore? Dawn's always been pretty straightforward with how she feels about people. Why wouldn't she admit to herself that she misses their friendship? Especially in S7, when no one's going to object to it (except Giles, but no one cares what he thinks)?
it's odd how they don't interact during that episode.
Only if you don't know the background. Personally, I think it's stupid, but the reason Dawn and Spike don't interact in S6 has little to do with the characters.
Actually, I think Dawn has reason to be angry with Spike long before the AR. Because we never see Buffy explicitly tell Spike to stay away from Dawn, do we? That's fanon.
Agreed. Though if she's angry about it, that indicates she cares about Spike's friendship, and would want it back. I can see how the AR might change that temporarily, but in S7 she obviously has no problem with him living in their house or his and Buffy's blatant closeness, so she can't still be holding the AR against him.
no subject
I hope it's okay for me to be commenting on an old post!
no subject
The background with Dawn and Spike is that the writers decided they shouldn't have so many scenes together because Michelle Trachtenberg was turning into a hottie. James has chemistry with EVERYONE, so I suppose they were worried that there'd be a sexual vibe there, which is kind of icky with the age difference between the actors.
I dunno, I think it's kinda silly, since they'd been established as a brother/sister type relationship, but that's what Marti Noxon says on the "Bargaining" commentary:
Let's see, one thing we were definitely aware about after we shot this scene was that Dawn is definitely straddling that age where she's not yet a girl, not yet a woman... what is it? Not a girl, not yet a woman. There were places where I looked at the scenes and went, "God, she really is becoming very sexy in her own way," and she has, I think, a stance for - cross-legged kind of - looking at Spike. We were like, "Maybe we shouldn't have them sitting so close together after this."
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Wow, that is a pretty lame reason for not giving them scenes together. I also don't understand why "Bargaining" inspired it, since IMO, Michelle didn't start looking like a "hot, sexy" adult until S7. She's cute in S6, but it still strikes me as little kid cute. That's such a shame the writers chose that route, considering how nice a relationship it was. It also says something iffy about the writers (to me at least), that that's the reaction that would come to mind after filming such an innocent scene.
As much as I hate to think it, maybe there was other behind-the-scenes stuff that made the writers leery of putting the actors together. I've read that JM wrote a somewhat inappropriate song inspired by MT that Joss knew about. And even more skeevy, his wife is the same age as MT, perhaps even a few months younger. :/
In any case, the idea that a sexy vibe would naturally develop on-screen btw a 15-year-old and a 40-year-old is just ridiculous.
no subject
It's possible. Even James recognized that she was too young for him, though, so it's probably more UST than anything else. Here's the song, which James introduces by saying, "This song's about Michelle Trachtenberg... she's 18, right?"
no subject
Small mercies! Thanks for the link! Also, perfect icon for this thread. :)