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S7 Spuffy pondering

Yesterday,

snickfic made a post on the things she doesn't like about Spike in S7. I'll just copy the relevant point here:

The non-discussion of the AR. It is the huge purple elephant in the room in S7, rarely referred to but entirely overshadowing Spike and Buffy's relationship. I wish they'd actually talked it out sometime, even if we didn't see much of the discussion on screen. Just a hint that this was something that they were working through and moving on from would have been helpful.

In the comments,

angearia asked a very good question, which is: "What discussion of the AR would be satisfying? What needs to be said to make it work?"

And so I'm curious. I've seen plenty of people express displeasure with the way the AR (or even the entire S6 Spuffy relationship in general) was brushed aside in S7, but I don't know that I've ever seen anyone answer Emmie's question of what would make it better. (This may or may not be relevant to a fic idea I'm working on, but I ask more out of curiosity than anything else, as one who doesn't have a problem with what we were given.)

It seems like a difficult question to answer, since there's no real life equivalent to going and getting a soul, but are there expectations that Spike - or Buffy, for that matter - need to meet to make it "okay" for them to pursue a relationship again? Are verbal apologies and forgiveness necessary, or do actions speak louder than words? What is it that people find lacking about the way it was addressed on the show?

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It seems like the complaint about the AR is that it's too much to take on faith that Buffy and Spike forgave each other through their unspoken actions. But I think the two most important conversations about this are Spike's in Beneath You (where he admits guilt and begs forgiveness essentially) and Buffy's in Never Leave Me (where she absolves him -

You're alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance...You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man...And you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do. I believe in you, Spike. "

And then she proves her words with actions in Showtime, answering Spike's chant that "she believes in me."

There can definitely be questions as to Buffy's depth of feeling and how much Spike understood it. Especially that he might have doubted her love. But I don't think anyone can say that he doubted her forgiveness. Because her words and her actions spoke this to him loud and clear.

I'm actually satisfied with the Buffy and Spike aspects. The only thing I'd second is

gabrielleabelle's suggestion of saying something to Xander or Dawn. But then again, Buffy already did that to Dawn in Him:

DAWN
No, I'm—I'm just trying to understand. I mean, none of it makes sense. First you say Spike disgusts you, but secretly you two are doing it like bunnies. And then Spike says he'd die for you, but he tries to rape you.

BUFFY
(sighs) For the record, Spike knew how wrong it was. That's why he went away.

DAWN
But to get a soul? Like that would make him a better man? Xander had a soul when he stood Anya up at the altar. And now he says he still wants her? I just don't think it's the school basement that's making people crazy.

BUFFY
(sighs) I should really get back. You comin' with? (gathers her things)

But looking at this does bring up something that I desperately missed in S7. The other characters (not Buffy) acknowledging the incredible fact of Spike going to get his soul. Some interaction with the other Scoobies would be welcome with Spike. Though can there ever be straight talk about what the soul means in the Buffyverse?

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear, but I do see Gabs' point that there are plenty of people out there for whom anything less than

Spike: I tried to rape you and it was wrong. I'm sorry.
Buffy: I forgive you.

isn't enough to convince them. (I'd argue that perhaps they don't want to be convinced, but that's a post for another day.) Of course, those people probably don't read my LJ.

Though can there ever be straight talk about what the soul means in the Buffyverse?

My sources say no. Honestly, I'd have loved ANY interaction between Spike and the Scoobies, soul talk or not. Remember when Spike and Dawn used to be friends? Or how Xander and Spike used to be enemies, but oh, now they're not? Or hey, anyone notice that Spike and Willow have something in common now? No? Okay, never mind.

Remember when Spike and Dawn used to be friends?

This actually doesn't bother me because of an essay I wrote back in college about Spike and Dawn bonding as outsiders. That once Dawn became assimilated into the Scoobies during Season 7, she and Spike's relationship had less common ground for them.

I was just thinking about how powerful a Willow & Spike scene could have been, the two of them bonding over their past mistakes. It's weird too to go from Xander being so aggressive about Spike in BY to Spike living with him in Him. There actually is a bit of the Spike with Dawn and Xander interaction, but it evaporates by the time the Potentials show up (shocking, huh?). And there's really no significant Willow & Spike to speak of.

Hmm, I can see them bonding as outsiders, but I tend to think (and maybe this is influenced by my love for that friendship) that after the summer when Buffy was dead, it was deeper than just that, almost a familial bond, and that Dawn wouldn't ditch him once she was accepted by the Scoobies.

I can certainly understand Dawn being angry at him at the beginning of S7, but shouldn't Spike want to repair that relationship? And even if Dawn no longer feels like an outsider, it seems strange to go from "I'll set you on fire" to not even noticing he exists. Did she just get over that? Is she following Buffy's example? She doesn't seem terribly convinced in "Him," so what changed her mind?

Is she taking a page from her sister's book and practicing denial?

They do have a beautiful friendship in late S5/early S6, but this has already deteriorated a bit by Buffy's return. Your fic having them interact in Older and Far Away - it's odd how they don't interact during that episode. Actually, I think Dawn has reason to be angry with Spike long before the AR. Because we never see Buffy explicitly tell Spike to stay away from Dawn, do we? That's fanon. We just see Spike stop seeking Dawn out and we see Dawn feeling incredibly lonely, pushed the brink by being ignored (shoplifting, making dangerous wishes). All Dawn's primary caregivers ignore her during Season 6 - Buffy, Spike and Tara. Though Tara's is an enforced distance, like an abused wife leaving in order to protect herself and only getting to visit every other weekend. At least we seen an effort being made by Tara. Buffy tries at times and fails other times. With Spike - all we have is presumably his absorption with Buffy. It's not like he's doing anything that season besides helping Buffy, sleeping with her and apparently running an international arms business (/sarcasm at the last bit).

Is she taking a page from her sister's book and practicing denial?

Denial about what? That she doesn't care about Spike anymore? Dawn's always been pretty straightforward with how she feels about people. Why wouldn't she admit to herself that she misses their friendship? Especially in S7, when no one's going to object to it (except Giles, but no one cares what he thinks)?

it's odd how they don't interact during that episode.

Only if you don't know the background. Personally, I think it's stupid, but the reason Dawn and Spike don't interact in S6 has little to do with the characters.

Actually, I think Dawn has reason to be angry with Spike long before the AR. Because we never see Buffy explicitly tell Spike to stay away from Dawn, do we? That's fanon.

Agreed. Though if she's angry about it, that indicates she cares about Spike's friendship, and would want it back. I can see how the AR might change that temporarily, but in S7 she obviously has no problem with him living in their house or his and Buffy's blatant closeness, so she can't still be holding the AR against him.

Hi! I've been reading this meta and other archived ones that were recommended on blackfrancine's LJ a few days ago when she asked for S6/S7 Spike meta, and I was wondering what this means, if it's something about the actors/behind the scenes:

Only if you don't know the background. Personally, I think it's stupid, but the reason Dawn and Spike don't interact in S6 has little to do with the characters.

I hope it's okay for me to be commenting on an old post!

It's always okay to comment, no matter how old the post! :)

The background with Dawn and Spike is that the writers decided they shouldn't have so many scenes together because Michelle Trachtenberg was turning into a hottie. James has chemistry with EVERYONE, so I suppose they were worried that there'd be a sexual vibe there, which is kind of icky with the age difference between the actors.

I dunno, I think it's kinda silly, since they'd been established as a brother/sister type relationship, but that's what Marti Noxon says on the "Bargaining" commentary:

Let's see, one thing we were definitely aware about after we shot this scene was that Dawn is definitely straddling that age where she's not yet a girl, not yet a woman... what is it? Not a girl, not yet a woman. There were places where I looked at the scenes and went, "God, she really is becoming very sexy in her own way," and she has, I think, a stance for - cross-legged kind of - looking at Spike. We were like, "Maybe we shouldn't have them sitting so close together after this."

Thank you so much for the answer!! I'm relatively new to the fandom, considering how old it actually is, and I find so many things in old metas and discussions I'm curious about.

Wow, that is a pretty lame reason for not giving them scenes together. I also don't understand why "Bargaining" inspired it, since IMO, Michelle didn't start looking like a "hot, sexy" adult until S7. She's cute in S6, but it still strikes me as little kid cute. That's such a shame the writers chose that route, considering how nice a relationship it was. It also says something iffy about the writers (to me at least), that that's the reaction that would come to mind after filming such an innocent scene.

As much as I hate to think it, maybe there was other behind-the-scenes stuff that made the writers leery of putting the actors together. I've read that JM wrote a somewhat inappropriate song inspired by MT that Joss knew about. And even more skeevy, his wife is the same age as MT, perhaps even a few months younger. :/

In any case, the idea that a sexy vibe would naturally develop on-screen btw a 15-year-old and a 40-year-old is just ridiculous.

As much as I hate to think it, maybe there was other behind-the-scenes stuff that made the writers leery of putting the actors together.

It's possible. Even James recognized that she was too young for him, though, so it's probably more UST than anything else. Here's the song, which James introduces by saying, "This song's about Michelle Trachtenberg... she's 18, right?"

Even James recognized that she was too young for him, though

Small mercies! Thanks for the link! Also, perfect icon for this thread. :)

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S7 Spuffy pondering

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