S7 Spuffy pondering

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Yesterday, snickfic made a post on the things she doesn't like about Spike in S7. I'll just copy the relevant point here:

The non-discussion of the AR. It is the huge purple elephant in the room in S7, rarely referred to but entirely overshadowing Spike and Buffy's relationship. I wish they'd actually talked it out sometime, even if we didn't see much of the discussion on screen. Just a hint that this was something that they were working through and moving on from would have been helpful.

In the comments, angearia asked a very good question, which is: "What discussion of the AR would be satisfying? What needs to be said to make it work?"

And so I'm curious. I've seen plenty of people express displeasure with the way the AR (or even the entire S6 Spuffy relationship in general) was brushed aside in S7, but I don't know that I've ever seen anyone answer Emmie's question of what would make it better. (This may or may not be relevant to a fic idea I'm working on, but I ask more out of curiosity than anything else, as one who doesn't have a problem with what we were given.)

It seems like a difficult question to answer, since there's no real life equivalent to going and getting a soul, but are there expectations that Spike - or Buffy, for that matter - need to meet to make it "okay" for them to pursue a relationship again? Are verbal apologies and forgiveness necessary, or do actions speak louder than words? What is it that people find lacking about the way it was addressed on the show?

Comments

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

I'm decidedly undecided on this, to be honest. It was one of my initial complaints about the scene, but I've kind of mellowed on it. And now...

I think Spike had it right in Beneath You. He can't say he's sorry or ask for forgiveness. And I don't think Buffy is obligated to give him explicit forgiveness (though she certainly shows she forgives him later, going so far as to turn her back on her mentor for Spike).

I think what I would have actually liked was Buffy having a conversation with Dawn or Xander about how they feel about it. Nothing huge. Just have Xander commenting that he can't move past what Spike did, and Buffy saying that she can, or something similar with Dawn.

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For me, personally, I think the way the AR was set up makes it very difficult for them to have this conversation. (This is something I've discovered in trying to write about it.)

I mean, in our heads, we can forgive Spike because of all the mitigating circumstances, but I think it'd be really sticky for Buffy to do the same - out loud, on TV - without it sounding like she's accepting the blame for almost being raped.

Having a conversation with Dawn or Xander is interesting. I don't know that it would've told us anything we couldn't tell from her nonverbal interactions with Spike, but it would've been nice to know that Buffy did set the record straight with them.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

For me, personally, I think the way the AR was set up makes it very difficult for them to have this conversation. (This is something I've discovered in trying to write about it.)

True. Which is why I've kinda stopped thinking that Buffy/Spike should have discussed it, because I don't think much more needed to be discussed.

I have played with the idea of writing my own post-AR fic, but I never get far with it because I honestly don't know how to address it in a decent way.

With the Dawn or Xander scene, it would be less about Buffy/Spike and more of an explicit reference back to the AR. As it is, past BY, we really only have nonverbal clues as to who feels what, and those are often interpreted differently by fans. I do think at least some explicit mention of the AR past BY was needed to give us some gauge as to Buffy's feelings and also Dawn and/or Xander's feelings.

After all, a lot of people think that Spike got off too easy and have radically different views on the AR scene than us here on LJ fandom do. Subtlety is all well and good, but when they have such a visceral portrayal of attempted rape, they need to follow it up just as explicitly. Otherwise, yeah, it does look like they're dropping it.

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Heh, well, we'll see how far I get with mine.

I will be curious to see what you think of the next couple chapters, and whether the Dawn and Xander parts convey what you're talking about.

After all, a lot of people think that Spike got off too easy and have radically different views on the AR scene than us here on LJ fandom do.

Good point. There is definitely a difference between "What do we as Spuffy fans want/need?" and "What's best for the show, given the audience as a whole?"

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Spuffy fans obviously want naked!Spike and lots of steamy hot Spuffy sex. *nods*

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Well, that's what season 6 is for. :)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

And PWP! Don't forget the PWP!