next_to_normal | Cordy/Angel meta

Current Mood: contemplative

Entry tags:

Cordy/Angel meta

There's a thread on the BSV forum on the Cordy/Angel relationship, and I'll probably get around to posting this there when I get a chance, but I figured I might as well jot down my thoughts while I was thinking them. Also, I've been trying to post more stuff here besides fic and memes, and for the most part, people seem to like the meta, so here goes.

I was never really into Cordy/Angel. I mean, I get objectively why they'd make a good pairing, but I just wasn't invested in them. (Also, I think the things that would make them a good pairing are the same things that made them a fantastic friendship, so why mess with a good thing?) So, last night, I was watching "Spin the Bottle" (thank you, Scarlet), and I finally figured out what about the ship turns me off.

It's trying to be Bangel.

It's as though the writers felt like the best way to compete with the Buffy/Angel relationship was to make Cordy/Angel just as star-crossed - even though the relationship was completely different. The thing is, Cordy and Angel had this deep friendship Buffy and Angel never had. And it didn't have to be romantic - their chemistry reminds me a lot of early Buffy/Willow, or season 5 Angel/Spike. (In fact, Cordy's relationship with Angel is exactly like Spike's. They both know him better than anyone, they're the ones to always call him on his shit, and they're the best at bringing out both petty!Angel and hero!Angel... and omg, I just realized that Spike was totally brought in to replace Cordy twice.)

Er, yeah. Where was I? Right. Angel and Cordy, totally different foundation from Angel and Buffy. But as soon as Angel recognizes his feelings for Cordy, the writers start throwing up one artificial roadblock after another, trying to come up with ways to keep them apart, when there's really no good reason to. First it's Groo, then Cordy disappears, then she's back but she's lost her memory, then she remembers everything, but she knows too much, then the Connor thing, and then he's evil, and then she's evil, and by the time we get to the coma, instead of thinking how sad it is that they missed their chance and they'll never be together, I'm going ZOMG, thank goodness it's finally OVER! Which I don't think was the intention...

The thing is, Bangel was star-crossed because they really could never be together. Even without the vampire/Slayer obstacle, or Angel's slippery soul, their relationship was teenage and idealistic, and that never, ever works out in real life. But Cordy and Angel were different. They had a solid friendship, and there was no good reason they couldn't turn it into a relationship, if they'd just, y'know, put a little effort into it. But instead we get two years of UST and pining away, and the whole time I'm thinking, "Be together. Don't be together. It doesn't matter. Just stop angsting about it." (Which, incidentally, is what I spent much of the early seasons saying to Buffy and Angel.)

If they wanted to go the relationship route with Cordy and Angel, the model shouldn't have been Bangel, it should have been Spuffy. Sure, Buffy and Spike were messy, and complicated, and occasionally just plain awful, but they were real. The conflict between them was internal, not some external roadblock that keeps them apart (and, IMO, internal conflict is always a better story than external conflict). And that's what I wanted to see from Cordy/Angel (or would have wanted to see, if I'd actually cared about them getting together).

Or maybe I'm just completely anti-pairing on Angel, since this episode also reminded me how annoying the Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle was. I didn't mind Fred and Gunn together, but with Wes pining away... I mean, holy crap, boys, stop fighting over her! She's not worth it!

I can't actually think of any ship I liked on that show (except for the implied Spangel). Cordy/Doyle? Mostly one-sided and he was gone too fast for me to get invested. Angel/Fred? Totally hero worship and icky. Wes/Lilah? I... kinda block that out since it was during the parts of season 4 I dislike. Cordy/Connor? No explanation needed. Lindsey/Eve? I just hate Eve, so anything that gives her more screen time is bad. Wes/Fred? Weirdly obsessive and by the time they got together, I think Wes was more in love with the idealized version of Fred he'd pined for than the actual girl. Angel/Nina? Blah. Nina was practically a non-entity.

It's funny, because although I clearly have my preferences (*cough* Spuffy), I don't have any problem with the other canon pairings on Buffy (except Willow/Kennedy), and I regularly incorporate them into my fics. But Angel, for some reason, is like pairing kryptonite to me.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Basically, Wesley/Lilah for me is the show going "thank you for sticking this out. Here, have a treat." But oh boy was that a chocolate covered treat.

I'll agree with you on the other ships on Angel. They never roped me in. Well, except for the slight Illyria/Wesley thing goign on at the end there.

is like pairing kryptonite to me. *snerk* I think we're zeroing in on your only wanting to write Spuffy....

I loved Doyle, and I've read a wonderful short fic in which he gives Cordy a really fun day at the beach that is completely the opposite of the sort of thing she thinks she likes. It made me want them to get together. :) It's sad that he was gone so quickly.

Amazing comparison of Spike to Cordy. I wouldn't have thought of it, but you're right. They have very similar relationships with Angel. Good call.

I really preferred Angel with Cordy. It was more of a real relationship to me. They both changed after leaving Sunnydale. Cordy and Wes were the most changed characters on the new show. They had arcs in their growth.

Buffy and Angel was never a real relationship to me. It was a first love for Buffy which was fairy tale to her. She didn't know real love for what it was. How it ended scarred her for the rest of her relationships. Riley and Spike both suffered due to her issues with trust cause by her father leaving and then Angel. Buffy and Spike was a real relationship because they tried to deal with their issues. Angel left because he couldn't deal, but Spike refused to leave even after Buffy had died. Spike was the real deal for Buffy even if she had trouble accepting it. JMHO.

Angel had mixed ideas and feelings about his relationship to Buffy. She was his chance to begin his redemption. She was an innocent to him and he treated her as such as long as he wasn't Angelus. Angel drifted for a very long time and hid away from human contact till Whistler showed him Buffy. Without that Angel might have stayed in alleys eating rats.

Angel and Cordy grew to respect and care about each other before love got in the way. Angel and Cordy had a real adult relationship where they didn't idolize who the other was. The real life pregnancy of Charisma Carpenter changed everything for the show. They had to do rewrites so we never really got to see the direction the writers had wanted to do. Season Four suffered for the rewrites.

Angel with Buffy to me never worked. Angel walked away. He thought he was doing the right thing, but he ended up making it difficult for Buffy emotionally. Angel and Cordy might have worked if real life hadn't caused a change of plans for the show.

Never thought this out but...Angel and Cordelia were interesting and fun to watch when they were friends. She was honest, no hero worshiping here [like so many of the Angel group.] Angel and Buffy was kept alive too long and should have been a lovely memory thing not a possibility.

Poor Cordelia was put into so many 'plot' turns that destroyed her character and attraction. Cordelia and Conner - eww unwatchable!

She was honest, no hero worshiping here [like so many of the Angel group.]

I was remembering the scene where Wesley and Cordelia "explain" Bangel to a recently rescued Fred *giggles*

Haha, it's possible that's what it was. Unfortunately, I only have vague memories of Wes/Lilah, since I couldn't bring myself to rewatch the icky middle of s4. (It only gets good again when Angel loses his soul, but then Lilah kicks it pretty quickly.)

Will I be stoned if I say that maybe is Angel that acts like a muffler for sexy thoughts? I love Angel as a character, I love Boreanaz as an actor, on BtVS and on AtS and on Bones, he's certainly handsome and charismatic but I never found him sexy.
Capital crime?

But it's not just Spuffy! I mean, they're obviously my favorite, but I've written Spillow and Willow/Oz, as well as Xander/Anya and Willow/Tara in my more ensemble-type fics. I may not spend a lot of time on them, but at least I like the Buffy ships. On Angel, I can't find two people I actually liked together, lol.

The real life pregnancy of Charisma Carpenter changed everything for the show.

I could be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that Cordy was always going to be evil in s4. The pregnancy obviously forced them to make some changes to the plot (she probably wouldn't have given birth to Jasmine, for instance), but I didn't think it changed the trajectory of Cordy's character or her relationship with Angel.

They were such great friends, weren't they? Part of me didn't want them in a relationship, because I wouldn't want to ruin the friendship... but they ended up ruining it without them getting together anyway, so Cordy/Angel couldn't have been worse than what we got.

I thought they started to veer off-course when she chose to be a higher power (totally OOC, IMO), and it was just downhill from there. I didn't mind her being part-demon, as it didn't seem to change her much, but the higher power thing was just way off.

Love that scene! One thing that's great about AtS is that they weren't afraid to make fun of themselves, or their title character.

LOL, I'd say maybe you were on to something, except I do have sexy thoughts re: Spangel. I'm not a Booth/Brennan shipper on Bones, though (another relationship that I think is way too good of a friendship to ruin), so maybe poor DB is a muffler, and it's just that JM's sex appeal is enough for both of them.

This is a really good summary of my own thoughts on the matter, with slight differences in that I WAS invested in their relationship (leaning towards pairing, but not obsessed). I loved where Cordy's character went by the end of s1 into s2 and thought the chemistry between the "core 3" was really excellent, with Gunn acting as a sort of counterbalance.

the writers start throwing up one artificial roadblock after another, trying to come up with ways to keep them apart

I think you nailed it with "artificial roadblock" here. A lot of that stuff was superfluous and time wasting. But then, I thought that Angel & Cordy has such a solid friendship that it would be hard to come up with internal conflict for them. Not impossible, but it would have taken the show in an entirely different direction.

And I'm with you 100% on mid-s4. (I actually have a re-write for that sitting on my hard drive, awaiting tinkering.) By that time, I was SO ready for the show to go in a COMPLETELY different direction!

I guess my problem with Angel on his own show is that I feel like the writers stunted his arc artificially. Every time it looked like they were going to add to his "personal growth chart", he took another spin on the wheel of angst when it should have been a spiral. Either up or down, but not the same thing over and over!

Anyway, good meta!

I separate the two things. It was the writers wrongly trying to turn them into Bangel as opposed to the characters organically becoming Bangel-esque. It was like the writers had a Bangel fixation which is why they kept returning to the Bangel story tropes (with a bunch of couples) rather than letting different couples be different, and as a result, they writers had the characters do some very strange contortions to continue in a Bangel vein.

I personally loved Cordy/Angel... in theory. There was a connection between them that was more substantive than any Bangel shared (which was all about fantastical teen angst). But, as soon as the writers decided to actually pursue Cordy/Angel, rather than grow what was there between C/A they set about trying to make them Bangel when it never should have been. The whole kyrumption b.s. (or however it was spelled) was silly and ridiculous and part of some odd tendency in the Whedonverse that requires characters to be 'special' rather than letting characters just be in their own right and that be special enough. The more they tried to make the Cordy/Angel connection fantastical as opposed to their knowing/loving each other -- flaws and all -- the more the story went awry. Add in the problems the writers seemed to have with CC, and C/A, which had such potential, got derailed.

I still consider C/A to be the more true relationship though I also think that Angel maintained a more idealized and romanticized Bangel in his head.

Edited 2008-08-15 16:45 (UTC)

Hee. I have to admit to having loved Wes/Lilah. It was just so horribly screwed up and hot. ::fans self:: There was lots more story for those two.

Yeah, as I was writing this up, I was trying to think of what kind of internal conflict they could have. I could see them having some genuine angst over one or the other not wanting to ruin the friendship. Maybe play on the family dynamic of Angel/Cordy/Connor - NOT the Oedipal shit, but more of Cordy trying to play a parenting role for Connor and him totally not respecting her. Classic stepmother issues. Even trouble with dating in the workplace could've worked - although the Fred/Gunn/Wes thing pretty much covered the inter-office romance issues, I'd much rather have had the issues be Angel/Cordy related and the F/G/W thing to have never happened at all. They could always fall back on the bad guys using their feelings against them - you know, force Angel to do something or they'll kill Cordy, or the other way around... leading, of course, to the inevitable break-up - "As long as we're together, you'll always be a target."

I actually have a re-write for that sitting on my hard drive, awaiting tinkering.

Do it! Do it!

Yeah, I kind of separate them, in that objectively, I can see how they would have worked well as a pairing, and I can understand why people ship them, and I blame all the bad stuff on the writers, not the nature of the relationship. But I still don't have that spark of investment in the couple, and I'm not sure if that's a problem with the writing leaving me cold, or me just not picking up on the romantic chemistry between them that would sell me on the pairing.

I personally loved Cordy/Angel... in theory. There was a connection between them that was more substantive
I still consider C/A to be the more true relationship

Yeah! This is what I meant (only shipperx makes better sense) by stunting Angel's "personal growth". I thought both Cordy and Angel's arc from BtVS to Angel (by s2) was enough to carry the characters; their "specialness" didn't have to be inserted so awkwardly.

(see, this is why I joined LJ... I thought I was the only one who had these thoughts!)

You're right--it was a brokedown remake of Bangel, but only worse. The whole thing just makes me wince in pain for Angel. Think of it--here's this woman he's totally head over heels with, and just as he realizes it, thinks that *she* realizes it, this boring, one-dimensional brokedown remake of Angel swoops in. Only Cordelia can't actually consummate anything because *gasp* she'll *lose* her powers. She'll lose what makes her special (though to Angel, she already was special, and is this ringing any bells). So what does Angel have to do? Find a way to make her specialness full proof so that she can go boink his boring replacement. Talk about sucking donkey balls. And then losing her while trapped at the bottom of the sea, and...yeah, you know the rest.

See, this is why I enjoy Spangel, even though it was totally sexless canon-wise (what we saw of it, anyway), but it was less complicated. It cut through the bullshit. And we didn't have all that angst garbage that we all O.D.ed on anyway from everyone else. Just two guys, not holding anything back. It was more fun that way, I tells ya.

Also, Spike makes an excellent Cordelia replacement. As much as I love her character (before she became damaged goods anyway), Spike did it better--two times. And that is totally unbiased, cause I love her too.

And yes, *way* too long...

I'm not sure if that's a problem with the writing leaving me cold, or me just not picking up on the romantic chemistry between them that would sell me on the pairing.

You may have something there. For some reason, David and James oozed chemistry. It was seeping out of their pores, I tell you.

Um...yes.

They had planned for Cordy to be the big bad and fight Angel directly. They never came out to say, but the way that Groo was shuffled off with by a short conversation with Lorne and never mentioned again was very odd. Then putting Cordy with Connor the way they did changed the idea that Cordy was the big bad down to only the shell that created the big bad. So it did change the idea of that season. It changed the relationship between Angel and Connor which led to the signing away of the characters' souls to give Connor a different life. So, I do believe the relationship between Angel, Cordy and even Connor was taken a different direction to accommodate Charisma's real life pregnancy. Only the writers know for sure.

Hmm, that's true, Spike was brought on to both shows after Cordelia left...

I could have liked Angel/Cordy, but I also got annoyed with it. I never had the "it's so sad" feeling, but rather the "thank god it's over feeling." All that "they never got together" stuff got on my nerves. I would have rather that they got together and had it end tragically than all this "will they, won't they, oh not another obstacle!" stuff. I hated the higher being stuff, and Connor--ick. In fact, season 4--ick. I also would have been perfectly happy for Angel and Cordy to remain friends.

I don't think I got invested in any of the ships on Angel, either. I like Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Xander/Anya, even Xander/Cordy, but no pairing on Angel actually got me invested, where I was sad when they split. Though I did hope that Fred would get with Wes, the triangle seemed way overdone.

So if Booth&Brennan have such a great friendship that has to stay that way, it's another stick to my little fence; and the JM factor works every time. I blame that on good acting and lack of wholesomeness.

Yeah, that makes sense, Cordy going from big bad to giving birth to the big bad. I can't see Angel and Cordy getting together after she was the big bad, though, which makes me think they were never intended to be together. (Unless, of course, they had planned to redeem her by sending her to Africa to get a soul and/or taking a vacation in England to learn how to not be evil. *g*)

It might have been interesting if they'd gotten together in s4, only to have her go evil and they break up and he ends up fighting her, but then again, that sounds an awful lot like the reverse of Buffy season 2...

Hee! The thing is, I think Angel and Cordy had good chemistry, just not romantic chemistry. I was trying to think of good examples of this - deep friendships that can have really intense scenes and the actors play off one another really well, but it's not sexual in any way. But other than Spangel (which is admittedly a little sexy), I can only think of examples on shows you haven't seen, lol. BSG has some good ones, or The West Wing (Bartlet/Leo comes to mind as a really strong friendship with amazing chemistry that was totally unsexy because these are two old men who've known each other 40 years).

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Page 1 of 4

Cordy/Angel meta

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject