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Cordy/Angel meta

There's a thread on the BSV forum on the Cordy/Angel relationship, and I'll probably get around to posting this there when I get a chance, but I figured I might as well jot down my thoughts while I was thinking them. Also, I've been trying to post more stuff here besides fic and memes, and for the most part, people seem to like the meta, so here goes.

I was never really into Cordy/Angel. I mean, I get objectively why they'd make a good pairing, but I just wasn't invested in them. (Also, I think the things that would make them a good pairing are the same things that made them a fantastic friendship, so why mess with a good thing?) So, last night, I was watching "Spin the Bottle" (thank you, Scarlet), and I finally figured out what about the ship turns me off.

It's trying to be Bangel.

It's as though the writers felt like the best way to compete with the Buffy/Angel relationship was to make Cordy/Angel just as star-crossed - even though the relationship was completely different. The thing is, Cordy and Angel had this deep friendship Buffy and Angel never had. And it didn't have to be romantic - their chemistry reminds me a lot of early Buffy/Willow, or season 5 Angel/Spike. (In fact, Cordy's relationship with Angel is exactly like Spike's. They both know him better than anyone, they're the ones to always call him on his shit, and they're the best at bringing out both petty!Angel and hero!Angel... and omg, I just realized that Spike was totally brought in to replace Cordy twice.)

Er, yeah. Where was I? Right. Angel and Cordy, totally different foundation from Angel and Buffy. But as soon as Angel recognizes his feelings for Cordy, the writers start throwing up one artificial roadblock after another, trying to come up with ways to keep them apart, when there's really no good reason to. First it's Groo, then Cordy disappears, then she's back but she's lost her memory, then she remembers everything, but she knows too much, then the Connor thing, and then he's evil, and then she's evil, and by the time we get to the coma, instead of thinking how sad it is that they missed their chance and they'll never be together, I'm going ZOMG, thank goodness it's finally OVER! Which I don't think was the intention...

The thing is, Bangel was star-crossed because they really could never be together. Even without the vampire/Slayer obstacle, or Angel's slippery soul, their relationship was teenage and idealistic, and that never, ever works out in real life. But Cordy and Angel were different. They had a solid friendship, and there was no good reason they couldn't turn it into a relationship, if they'd just, y'know, put a little effort into it. But instead we get two years of UST and pining away, and the whole time I'm thinking, "Be together. Don't be together. It doesn't matter. Just stop angsting about it." (Which, incidentally, is what I spent much of the early seasons saying to Buffy and Angel.)

If they wanted to go the relationship route with Cordy and Angel, the model shouldn't have been Bangel, it should have been Spuffy. Sure, Buffy and Spike were messy, and complicated, and occasionally just plain awful, but they were real. The conflict between them was internal, not some external roadblock that keeps them apart (and, IMO, internal conflict is always a better story than external conflict). And that's what I wanted to see from Cordy/Angel (or would have wanted to see, if I'd actually cared about them getting together).

Or maybe I'm just completely anti-pairing on Angel, since this episode also reminded me how annoying the Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle was. I didn't mind Fred and Gunn together, but with Wes pining away... I mean, holy crap, boys, stop fighting over her! She's not worth it!

I can't actually think of any ship I liked on that show (except for the implied Spangel). Cordy/Doyle? Mostly one-sided and he was gone too fast for me to get invested. Angel/Fred? Totally hero worship and icky. Wes/Lilah? I... kinda block that out since it was during the parts of season 4 I dislike. Cordy/Connor? No explanation needed. Lindsey/Eve? I just hate Eve, so anything that gives her more screen time is bad. Wes/Fred? Weirdly obsessive and by the time they got together, I think Wes was more in love with the idealized version of Fred he'd pined for than the actual girl. Angel/Nina? Blah. Nina was practically a non-entity.

It's funny, because although I clearly have my preferences (*cough* Spuffy), I don't have any problem with the other canon pairings on Buffy (except Willow/Kennedy), and I regularly incorporate them into my fics. But Angel, for some reason, is like pairing kryptonite to me.

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Heh, that's the thing about LJ... you can always find someone who agrees with you, no matter how crazy and out there it is! (Not that this one's all that out there, lol.)

Only Cordelia can't actually consummate anything because *gasp* she'll *lose* her powers.

Okay, that right there should have indicated how perfect they were for each other. Two people who can't ever have sex. Who else are they going to date but each other?

I changed my mind. I'm sold.

As much as I love her character (before she became damaged goods anyway), Spike did it better--two times.

Hmm... I don't think Spike actually did all that good a job of replacing Cordelia in Buffy. I mean, he was an excellent character in his own right, and far surpassed the role he was intended to fill, but as a Cordy replacement? Not so much. I think Anya ended up doing that, which is why they had to find other things for Spike to do (which worked out better for everyone).

The first time was intentional... the second time, I think, not so much. :) If anything, he was meant to be a replacement for Connor. Connor was brought in to "revitalize" the show, and when that failed miserably, they tossed him to the curb and brought Spike over to see if he'd do better.

And for the rest of what you said, ITA! :)

I loved Wes/Lilah. And Angel/Lilah, Lilah/Lilah would have been cool too. Lilah was ace.

Loved Cordelia but meh, they tried to make her all earth mother - preferred Angel/Cordy back when she was still cool.

There again I quite liked Eve too so I was in the minority thar.

Yeah, Cordelia went drastically downhill. It's such a shame, because she'd just gone drastically uphill, and it didn't last.

You liked Eve? *defriends*

I was all for Angel/Cordy for awhile, but yeah, the writers messed it up. Not just because they kept introducing artificial roadblocks, but they never really established that there was a romantic relationship to fight for - it was all coy hints and subtext, and after awhile, that gets kind of tiresome.

I diiiiiiid. Well. I just never found her as bad as everyone said she was. I wouldn't have paid any attention at all if people hadn't started reacting with utter horror.

*snort* 'S'okay. Believe me, I've got some weird ideas!

I always disliked her because I thought she was both a terrible actress and a poorly written character. Bad, bad combination.

Yeah, that's a good point. And clearly, the characters didn't even know whether there was a romantic relationship to fight for, since they had to ask each other if they were in love. Like, shouldn't you know that? (Okay, Cordy lost her memory, but Angel has no excuse!)

Interesting meta.

I don't think writers tried to imitate Bangel; my impression is quite the contrary, that they tried to build all subsequent Buffy and Angel ships as an antithesis to BA.

I think that the main problem here is that BtVS is a show about love - hence, internal conflicts and personal issues. While AtS is a show about fighting - hence "artificial roadblocks" that characters have to fight.

Hmm... maybe in theory they tried to make them the antithesis of Bangel, but in practice, I think in all three cases (Riley, Spike, and Cordelia), there were at least as many similarities as there were differences. I sincerely doubt that the staff sat around the writers' room and said, "We need to make the Cordy/Angel romance compelling... let's copy Buffy and Angel!" but I think there was definitely a prevailing mentality that star-crossed=compelling, when that was actually totally wrong for the C/A relationship.

I don't think a show about fighting necessarily precludes internal conflict. I mean, isn't the central conflict of the show Angel's constant struggle against his darker nature? Isn't his main motivation a quest for redemption? That's all internal. I think if they'd tried, they could've found a way to fit internal C/A conflict into the fighting theme.

Maybe you're right. I just can't come up with a plausible plot twist to make them epically unhappy (and it's a must for all Jossverse couples) if they'd have normal, stable love-friendship relationship.

*stares at the rest of the show*

Bad combination, but not.. unusual :D

Well, I would've said Willow and Oz were pretty stable, but Joss managed to make them rather unhappy, lol.

I suggested a few potential conflicts in my reply to

ellan_vannin - maybe those would only make them average levels of unhappy rather than epically unhappy, but I still think it's doable.

Nah, she was in a cringeworthy category all by herself. I really didn't have a problem with anyone else's acting. Maybe Connor. I'm undecided if his problem was really the acting (since I think he's great on Mad Men) or the writing.

But other than the way Cordy was written in the later seasons, none of the individual characters consistently bothered me nearly as much.

I second the Wes/Lilah hotness. Disfunctional, violent, kinky, guilt-ridden, scorchingly hot sex? Hm, now who does that remind me of?

Oh yeah... S6 Spuffy. And both partners were banging the crap out of each other on concurrent seasons.

Man, I wish there were more Wes/Lilah fic out there. AmyB and and

likeadeuce have some amazingly wonderful dark, sexy character studies of the two of them.

Ah, and also with the Angel/Cordelia relationship(and the Nina one for that matter), if you were a guy that lost his sould and killed a bunch of people because you got some hanky panky, how much of an asshole would you have to be to risk that again? I never got it.

oooo *hugs the recs*

Does AmyB have an lj?

Yes. Yes, there was. Gotta tell you though, having the relationship end with Wes having to chop her head off? Best. Ending. Ever.

(I may be very, very fond of screwed up relationships.)

I did have a bunny with Lilah greeting Wesley in the prelude to the atf comics, but the comic did another version of that so out it went.

Really? I always thought the opposite - that it was foolish of Angel to assume that just because sex did it the one time, that it would happen any time he had sex. I mean, perfect happiness is really hard to achieve, even for people who aren't saddled with a hundred and fifty years of serial killer guilt. It was the whole confluence of events - it was Buffy's first time, his first time in about a hundred years, he idealized both her and their relationship, he saw her as his redemption, not to mention the whole "I almost lost you tonight" emotional dynamic.

Plus, look at the elaborate fantasy he had to concoct in order to lose his soul again. It wasn't enough to just have sex with Cordelia - he had to do the whole Indiana Jones thing, kill the beast, save the world, patch things up with both Wesley and Connor, and THEN have sex with Cordelia, after they proclaim their love for each other.

I really don't think he was in any danger of losing his soul from the average roll in the hay... Also, he never actually had sex with Cordelia - only in the fantasy where the whole point was to lose his soul. He clearly wasn't in love with Nina, so there wasn't any danger there.

As much as I disliked Buffy/Angel, I liked Cordy/Angel even less and that's saying something. I was fine with them being friends (and you're so right about Cordela calling him on his shit-it was one of the few things I liked about her) but when it started to become more, I was all....nuh uh.

Cause, man, it's Cordelia. I cannot imagine one second of time where she'd seriously consider it, because she'd feel that she'd *always* be second-best in his heart.

Pretty much agree with you on the other ships you mentioned. Of course, you left out my favorites-Lindsey/Angel, Angel/Darla, Darla/Lindsey and *G* Angel/Darla/Lindsey.

I never really thought of that, since it seemed pretty clear how much they've both changed over the past few years. Especially after Buffy died and came back and it was all anti-climactic for Angel, it showed how much he was over her.

But now that you mention it, I think that would've been an interesting angle to pursue with their relationship. You can't really help who you crush on, but you can choose not to do anything about it. What if Cordelia had refused to get involved, despite their obvious feelings for each other, because she did think she was second-best to him? And then Angel'd have to prove that she wasn't. That'd create some angst. Beats the higher power thing, at any rate.

As for the other ships... Angel/Lindsey I didn't even consider, because I don't buy that ever happening. I did forget all about Darla, and I liked Angel/Darla, although they're about 90% fucked up, lol. Not really a fan of Lindsey/Darla...

Here via the Herald. I was going to make dinner but no way was I going to not respond.

*disclaimer* total, raging C/A shipper here. :D

Anyway, I sort of agree with you. I thought they were doing really great with the subtext bewteen the two of them, the growing friendship that was deepening into romantic love over time, until Fred started spouting off about Moira and crap. The C/A ship has never needed to be destined (in fact, I can't think of a ship less destined), never needed to be about two larger than life souls who 'recognize' each other.

Up until then, it was about two adults alone in the world who found each other. The writers could have dealt with problems like Angel's relationship issues, Cordy's desire not to bring Angelus back into the mix, Cordy's visions eating her up inside and her need to bear the visions for sake of being needed, Angel's need to make unilateral decisions for the group without consulting anyone. Connor's origins with Cordelia being cautious and not so accepting of him (given her experience with demonic pregnancies), and Angel's need to believe his son was good above any evidence to the contrary. Anything other than throwing up such superficial obstacles like Groo and amnesia.

*breathes*

And I have to wonder if Cordy and Spike are so much alike in their relationship with Angel, then why is shipping Spike with him so much more accepted than shipping Cordelia with him?

This is a rhetorical question, meant for the writers of the show, because really? Do you need any more evidence that Spike was brought on to be Angel's leading lady than the season 5 dvd box cover?

Uh huh and not only that but consider a moment what she'd went through with Xander. Cordelia knew he had a Buffy thing-and then to have caught him and Willow kissing? Yeah, I'd say there's no way she'd become involved with someone who's baggage she was very well aware of. And that isn't even mentioning the whole Angelus factor.

LOL! You just trounced on my OTP.

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