"That was real."

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penny_lane_42 made a post which prompted a discussion about Spuffy (shocker, I know!) and, less obviously, a comparison to Cordy/Angel. I started to comment, but it turned into a book, so here it is in a new post. I've actually talked about Cordy/Angel before, and while I think I like them more as a romantic pairing than I did then, my feelings about the execution fail in their relationship arc remain the same.

That said, I definitely see parallels between S/B and C/A, in a way that makes me like C/A a lot more precisely because of my Spuffy love. It can be hard to see the similarities because the two couples started at opposite ends of the spectrum and worked their way to the middle - Cordy and Angel started as friends who grew to love each other, whereas Buffy and Spike started as lovers who built a friendship out of the rubble of their destructive affair. But both were a slow build, and at the climax of their relationships (for B/S it's late S7, for C/A it's "You're Welcome"), both couples managed to develop a relationship that encompassed friendship, desire, trust, and love.

I think it helps to start by looking at the characters individually - a lot of people like to compare Angel and Spike because of the whole "vampire with a soul" thing, but superficial comparisons aside, they're not all that alike. In contrast, Angel and Buffy are actually very similar, and Cordy and Spike play corresponding roles in their lives.

Angel and Buffy are both the alphas in the relationship. (This is, in fact, one of the reasons I don't think they could ever work long term as a couple. They're too similar.) They are the heroes, the leaders of their respective teams, the ones who make the big decisions that affect people's lives. There's a lot of responsibility in that, and it can get heavy. Both of them struggle with the pain, the stress, and the isolation that comes with being the Chosen One. They need someone they can trust, someone who understands them in a way that no one else does, someone who will support them and keep them from detaching themselves too much, but also call them out when they're wrong.

Enter Cordelia and Spike. They are the foundation upon which our heroes build. Angel can't function without Cordy - he needs her to keep him sane, to keep him connected to the living, to keep him on the right path. She is his connection to the Powers and his guiding light. Likewise, Buffy depends on Spike - he is her best fighter when she needs back-up, her escape when the world is too much, her strength when she feels like giving up. He is the one she can count on when no one else is there.

Cordy and Spike help Angel and Buffy be heroes. They lift them up, and they love them in a way that doesn't ask for anything in return. Cordy and Spike make them better people. And I think the reverse is true as well - certainly for Spike, whose desire to become the kind of man Buffy would love drove him to do good, to get a soul, and save the world, but also for Cordelia, who became a much more compassionate and mature person with Angel. Cordy and Spike become heroes in their own right, but they never want or need to shine brighter than their respective partners. The mission is what matters, and Cordy and Spike have both dedicated themselves wholeheartedly to someone else's.

S/B is certainly not a pretty ship, so I can see why C/A fans might be dubious at the comparison. It's messy and complicated and occasionally dysfunctional, but it's very real. That's what separates it from the idealized romance of Buffy and Angel. It's not about destiny or star-crossed love; it's just two people trying to muddle through the best they can, and sometimes they get it right and sometimes they get it wrong. And that's a quality I see in C/A - they too are real, they never idealized each other, they never allowed each other anything but the unvarnished truth. (As I said in my previous essay, I think the writers went off the rails trying to make them more epic than they needed to be, so I think it works better in theory than in execution, but that foundation was definitely there, and it could've been so much better than what happened.) They've seen the best and the worst of each other, they understand each other with perfect clarity, and they know... you're the one.

Comments

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

i get so distressed when people dislike the execution of c/a. s4 did fucked up things with cordy's character, but the ship itself was only reinforced, imo. and everything about them is just so - it's such a giant puzzle, finally completed. everything fits together perfectly.

TELL ME WHY, LAUREN, TELL ME WHY. BRB SHAKING AND CRYING OVER HERE. MY HEART CAN'T TAKE IT LET ME CONVINCE YOU LET ME CONVINCE YOU.

one day i will write this cangel meta and everyone will understand and world peace will be upon us.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Basically I mean I hate the kyrrumption nonsense and also that they never had their chance to be together. I wanted to see them be like in "You're Welcome" for whole SEASONS. I'm a weird one in that I actually like to see my couples being together.

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

I HAVE FEELINGS ON KYRUMPTION.

first of all, i will say that there's a lot of misinterpretation of kyrumption as Destiny, which it's not. it's two champions meeting in a battlefield recognizing a mutual fate, which they do have: the mission. no one said the fate was each other. it's not. clearly. second, there's this perception in fandom that the entire kyrumption conversation took place because someone needed to TELL angel he loved cordelia, which is silly, because he already loved cordelia and he knew it. between to shanshu in la and the events of the back portion of s2, i'm pretty sure he was drowning in it. BUT, as i imagine is buffy's problem sometimes, it was so different than his relationship with buffy, i honestly don't think he recognized it for what it was until someone told him because angel is an idiot. but that doesn't mean those feelings were falsely manufactured. they've been in motion since day one, and propelled forward, in particular, by To Shanshu in LA (Cordy, I'm going to get you back. I need you back.), everything from Epiphany on in s2 (I just got her back), and Buffy's death (The problem is that I'm okay. I can deal with it.). it's just that it's so different, and this is a man who has been in love ONCE in 250 years. ONCE. so he thinks that's the way it is always supposed to go. and then when he realizes not only that he's in love with her, but that she has spent at this point four years reminding herself over and over again that he's a eunuch in love with Buffy, he tries to get rid of it. Emotional idiot. He can't, because he loves her (I'm more afraid of her dying than she is. What is that?), but that does lead us to Kyrumption conversation number two, which I love because yes:

LORNE: Can't fight Kyrumption, cinnamon buns. It's fate. It's the stars. Kyrumption is...

ANGEL: Stop saying that. (petulant) And stop calling me pastries.

LORNE: You're a man of many limitations, Angel. But you're a man. You got a heart. And Cordelia is a hell of a lady. I mean, if I thought she'd like to wear green, I'd be elbowing you out of the way. But she's out of my league. She's a champion, Angel, old school. And besides, we all know you got a thing for ex-cheerleaders.

ANGEL: What have I got to offer her?

THIS IS HIS PROBLEM. He knows he couldn't love Buffy, he knows he loves Cordelia, he knows that he doesn't have anything to offer her because she's Cordelia and her worth is staggering to him. He doesn't think she would look at him twice. Idiots. Both of them. And the fact that Lorne makes that jibe about Buffy - it guts Angel. He looks like Lorne punched him, and it's not in the "oh, I'm betraying Buffy way" (this comes later, see: could write an essay on Awakening), it's the "we've been here before in some ways, but to compare the two is to compare two incomparable things."

SO IN SUM KYRUMPTION THAT WORD I DO NOT THINK IT MEANS WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS I'M SORRY I HAVE SO MANY FEELINGS?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I really love your thoughts on this. I actually don't think that that's what Joss and Co. meant at all--I think they meant it closer to what the common fandom reaction is--but THE AUTHOR IS DEAD, so I'm gonna go with yours! YAY!

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

I actually don't think they meant for it to be 'fated love' because it is stated to be about two warriors meeting together in the battlefield and having a shared destiny. if kyerumption always meant romantic attraction then Angel would be fucking half the cast

[next_to_normal]

LOL, but....... kyrumption isn't mentioned in connection with anyone else but Cordy. So Cordy is the only warrior meeting Angel in the battlefield?

[next_to_normal]

Hahaha, yeah, I definitely like your version, but I have to agree with penny_lane_42 that I don't think it's what the writers were going for. I mean, it's right there in that quote:

Can't fight Kyrumption, cinnamon buns. It's fate. It's the stars.

If the "fate" Lorne is talking about isn't a romantic relationship with Cordy, then what exactly is Angel fighting? He and Cordelia have been joined in "the mission" for three years now, and there's no indication that's going to change. Lorne is explicitly encouraging him to act on his feelings, to pursue a romantic relationship with Cordy, and he's using kyrumption to convince Angel that he HAS to do it because it's meant to happen.

Angel definitely needed someone to explain his feelings to him (because, yeah, idiot), but I don't see why it had to include the concept of kyrumption. Couldn't Lorne have just been like, "Dude. You LOVE HER. She loves you. WTF is stopping you? (Besides being an idiot, of course, and hey, look at Eowyn editorializing in my dialogue!)"

Honestly, to me, it reads like the writers thought the only way Angel could be convinced to start a relationship was if it was fated. And I think that's kinda silly, not least because I think the idea of a relationship being fated is silly. :)

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

okay, i'll admit i totally perpetually ignore that line and didn't even register it until right now - but i've never read kyrumption as a romantic notion, so the fact that it's there just confuses me. because it's meeting on a field of battle. this show sometimes. i don't like kyrumption either, if only for the trouble it causes, but i think it's incredibly unfortunate that the ship gets written off as trying to be something it's not because of what amounts to two lines in the entire show, especially since lorne's version - the only one that mentions a romantic destiny anyway - happens after angel already is even consciously aware of the fact that he loves cordelia, and fred's is after he basically said as much in the s2 finale. idk. i just don't like this ship getting written off because of that. it just seems wrong. lorne SHOULD have been like "dude, you love her, she loves you, what's stopping you" - and he does say that in tomorrow, but. i don't know, if anything i'd say there's conflicting portrayals of what kyrumption is, because this line and the actual definition as offered by fred speak to totally different notions. i mean, kyrumption is probably as about as romantic as pylea ever got, but still. haterade. i don't think that angel needed to be convinced of the fateyness of it, but i do think that he needed pressure to do anything about it from the outside because he is perpetually used to torturing himself with

but we all can agree that destiny is stupid and trying to go there was stupid. i just think it doesn't merit making as big a deal out of it as fandom tends to. because it is literally two lines, both of which come from what basically amount to canonical shippers, and i just don't get why everyone focuses on it so much. like, i read the damn ship_manifesto essay for c/a and the first thing she did was outline how much she disliked the kyrumption conversations. THEY'RE TWO LINES, WHY MUST THEY FOLLOW MY KIDS SO MUCH. AND THAT WAS IN THE SHIP MANIFESTO.

sigh. shaking and crying etc. my heart hurts.

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if anything i'd say there's conflicting portrayals of what kyrumption is, because this line and the actual definition as offered by fred speak to totally different notions.

Haha, even Fred's explanation itself is contradictory. Because she does say the thing about the battlefield, but she also is obviously talking about Angel and Cordy in a romantic context - Angel's response is to insist that there's nothing going on between them, at which point Fred introduces the concept of "moira" (another silly Pylean word I think we could do without).

but we all can agree that destiny is stupid and trying to go there was stupid.

Yes. Yes, we can!

[rahirah]

Worse, it's like the writers thought that the audience wouldn't accept a relationship unless it was fated. :P

(I also love C/A in theory, but the execution often made me wince.)

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Ugh, yeah, that too.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought of kyrumption that way, but I would prefer to think of kyrumption that way so I can totally accept it.

Really, nothing has tainted the pairing for me. The pairing I like a lot, I just wish the writers had been more kind to them and not done some really bizarre obstacles and weirdness. But this doesn't change my feeling about the ship at all. The ship was great, the writing... not as great.

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

this i am on board with this entirely. i think everyone in the cangel fandom will tell you the show fucked up big time with them in some way or another. i blame a number of different parties for this. i just think that what we actually got is gravely underestimated. it's not as good as it should have been, but it's still one of the most stunning love stories i've seen. but that is why god made the internet and the internet made fanfiction.

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

this 100%

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

AS ALWAYS, YOUR APPROVAL IS REQUIRED AND LOVED. :D

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

hahahaha i just can't help offering my opinion on IMPORTANT CORDELIA CHASE ISSUES

part two oh jfc

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

As for the lack of fluffy times, I totally agree - and blame s4 for this entirely, because s3 is actually full of fluffy times, as much as emotional idiots can have fluffy times, but the thing about s4 is that A: joss is an idiot and B: it actually does an absurd amount of reinforcement of the gravity of this relationship. cordy's not in her body, and so that robs us of her and i hate that i hate that, but at the same time, and i was saying this in a comment above, i think certain aspects of her linger for the first few episodes of the season, and, to be quite honest, you're welcome as an episode takes care of all of cordelia's side of this business as far as i'm concerned. i want to see her there and in love with him and entrenched in it in s4, but i get so much of him being in love with her (see: AWAKENING AWAKENING AWAKENING and also INSIDE OUT INSIDE OUT INSIDE OUT OH MY HEART NEARLY DIED AT THAT EPISODE LAUREN I CAN'T EVEN TAKE IT JUST THINKING ABOUT IT BRB SHAKING AND CRYING. and also since i come at this from an angel perspective while everyone else is coming at it from a cordelia perspective, it is quite clear. this is why i can't understand people who are angel (character) fans who aren't c/a. what show are you watching? i understand cordelia, because cordelia loves him but it's complicated and she has her own buffy complex at play here, but if you love angel - which, granted, about five people do - i don't understand how you could not ship cangel, let alone how you could ship bangel. cordelia made him as a character and to ignore that and to shuffle it into a best friend box is to completely miss the entire root of his characterization by series end) - and, as i was saying above as well, i think even when jasmine is parading around in her skin the occasional bursts of OTP time we get from jasmine are rooted in the bits of cordelia that are still floating around inside, until jasmine squelches even this out - that i don't particularly mind their arc in s4 so much as hers. but we know who to blame for that.

would i prefer an alterna!s4 where she isn't evil and they can have otp times and be the best otp this verse has ever seen? of course. well, i happen to think, in terms of narrative construction and arc importance, they are the best otp this verse has ever seen and the only ship i'd really allow to be on the same level in terms of structure could be spuffy, but i don't ship it (YET?!), so there you go. either way, my POINT IS

1. i cannot shut up about these kids what even is this comment doing i am so sorry look at the mess i've made with all of these feelings.
2. otp.
3. i love you.
4. you are stunning. :)

Re: part two oh jfc

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

And again I am in love with your thoughts. Lots and lots of agreement over here. And yeah, I do tend to look at things from Cordy's side because...I like her more. But I like Angel when he's with her, too!

but i don't ship it (YET?!),

GIRL YOU GIVE ME HOPE.

1. I like reading about your feelings! They are delicious!
2. :D
3. I love you, too!
4. You're more stunning!

Re: part two oh jfc

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

i'm going to combine~ into one comment. :D

I actually don't think that that's what Joss and Co. meant at all--I think they meant it closer to what the common fandom reaction is--but THE AUTHOR IS DEAD, so I'm gonna go with yours! YAY!

but - well, authorial intent, one, as you noted, and two (and this is so ragey i'm sorry i have so many feelings): it's a five second scene and destiny's not the definition of kyrumption. destiny is a destination. fate is different - subtly different, but different. and given the wording, it does sound like a mutual fate as a death, as a close. i do think that angel and cordelia were meant to end up together, but not because of destiny, but because they kept getting pulled together time after time by sheer coincidence and those feelings never changed. see: birthday. best episode ever. and oh actually - i just talked about this yesterday (http://hopesichord.tumblr.com/post/1007502212/misskenton-reprise-and-epiphany). how convenient i should have remembered before i started typing this whole thing out. boo. my point is, and this is so difficult to explain outside of my head, that there is something about angel and cordelia that connects them. and always has and always will, but not on the way that angel and buffy were connected because b/a was a construct, it's something that the powers made happen in order to put them on their respective paths. will always maintain this. angel and cordelia connected on a very human level, a level that was learned and then once it was learned could not be shaken.

- but beyond that a mutual fate doesn't mean romance - i mean, kyrumption means meeting on a battlefield ffs. the first time i heard that - hell, when i still hear that - i thought of kyrumption as something that would lead to the death of one or both parties, but with a serious amount of respect. like a joust, if you will, and that's a definition i can get behind because it DID lead to the death of one or both parties. angel/cordelia had a mutual fate in the mission, not in each other, and that is why she ends up dead and he ends up fighting a dragon. also, fred'a four year old in that scene whatever. i just don't understand why it has managed to follow this ship around for so long, you know? and the entire rest of the show is about how destiny is bullshit constructions anyway, and a good deal of s4/5 is about rejecting destiny as a general rule. GOD THIS IS SO LONG I'M SO SORRY I HAVE SO MANY FEELINGS.

and this fandom has been reading so much on this show against what a thorough analysis will tell you that i have just grown to ignore whatever fandom says at this point. this fandom ships wes/fred and thinks they are actually in love with each other, and hates cordelia and thinks she's flat and that angel is brooding and boring and that this show has no merit and that his characterization can be ignored so he can kiss buffy summers, so i have just decided they're not watching. because no. not at all. no. stop. no. no.

it makes me sad that most people don't love angel. i think if they did it would make a lot of this ship and this show make more sense. in fact, the only way to make s3-5 make any sense at all, imo, is to recognize that angel loves cordelia. i know that when i look at c/a from cordy's perspective, i really had to work through it a lot because the show did it pretty quietly on her side. pretty much i dwell in birthday and you're welcome and that tells me everything i need to know, but i have feelings on this. but from angel's side? he loved her so much he couldn't see straight.

this is so fucking long. i'm sorry. i just have so many feelings.

- but i will clarify, s4?

shut that shit down. i want you're welcome all the time too. that episode was perfect. THEY'RE LIKE BUDDY COPS WHO ARE IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER AND REFUSE TO STAND MORE THAN FIVE FEET APART THE ENTIRE TIME (except when cordy's shutting down that thing in w&h's basement) I LOVE THEM.

Re: part two oh jfc

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

and this fandom has been reading so much on this show against what a thorough analysis will tell you that i have just grown to ignore whatever fandom says at this point. this fandom ships wes/fred and thinks they are actually in love with each other, and hates cordelia and thinks she's flat and that angel is brooding and boring and that this show has no merit and that his characterization can be ignored so he can kiss buffy summers, so i have just decided they're not watching. because no. not at all. no. stop. no. no.

fucking marry me right fucking now i swear to god

[next_to_normal]

LOL! Awww. *pets*

I can't speak for Lauren, but what I find problematic is that the writers threw up too many artificial roadblocks to keep them apart - trying to manufacture UST when they didn't need to. If they'd developed the relationship by letting the conflicts come from the characters rather than external factors, they'd have had just as much to work with, but it would've felt more organic to me.

The post I linked to at the beginning of this one says it using a lot more words, lol.

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

i mean, if you're talking about s3 with the groo arc i totally agree, and on that level i will agree with you - i am far more interested in seeing both of them deal with their immense amount of relationship baggage than that, but i think it's a really minor point in the grand scheme of things? idk. every ship has something that went wrong somewhere along the way, i feel (except wes/lilah which is my otp for all of time and is just perfectly constructed from beginning to end - but it wasn't as important or as visible, so less time to screw up?), so. yeah. and i read your post and - i don't know i prefer ats to btvs a thousand times over, so i automatically have a different response than yours, but i don't think it was trying to be bangel or destined. i think that's how it got read in one scene in billy and it has been haunting the ship ever since.

[next_to_normal]

Yes, definitely the Groo arc in S3, but it continues all the way through S4 (and yeah, I realize that wasn't Cordy the whole time, but watching it, we didn't know that). It's a season and a half of annoying will-they-won't-they for NO GOOD REASON. Because you're right, they totally do have lots of relationship baggage to deal with, but instead of actually addressing those things, we get all these external obstacles.

I think it would feel like a really minor point if they had actually gotten together at some point, but as it is, pretty much their entire relationship is looks and subtext, and so this UST/WTWT is what defines them for me. And it's frustrating because there are so many incredible things they could've done with this pairing and we got that instead.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

"You're Welcome" went a long way toward fixing their screw-ups.

Still resent parts of Season 4 on Cordy's behalf though. Sheesh. They put her through the ringer and it just wasn't fair!

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

OH I AGREE SO FUCKING MUCH. i just can't fault the ship for that. i can fault joss for that.

and oh, oh, oh, i do.