Male Feminists?

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So, the other day, gabrielleabelle made a post questioning the labeling of Angel as a feminist icon. The general consensus, not surprisingly, is that Angel is NOT the feminist icon we are looking for. But it did make me wonder - are there ANY male feminist icons in popular culture? I can't think of any.

Okay. "Icon" is a pretty high bar. How about just a portrayal of a male feminist character? Any medium. How many can you think of?

I'm also including gingerwall's list of criteria from the same post, just for reference. Your criteria may be different (I expect the third one is particularly difficult to find in pop culture, which might eliminate everybody, lol), but I thought it might be helpful for people who want guidelines.

Here would be my qualifications for the Best Male Feminist Role Model in All of Everything Ever:
- Let the women in his life be autonomous agents and make their own decisions.
- Listen to and carefully consider what women have to say about issues that affect both of them.
- Be aware of how organizations that he is a part of contribute to the oppression of the women in his life and work to change or protest those cultures, all the while getting feedback from those women to make sure he is accurately reflecting their lived experience.
- Encourage the women in his life to defy traditional gender roles and take on powerful positions, even at the expense of his own control and power.

Comments

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Yeah, I'd agree with eilowyn that S7 Spike is a feminist, which I'd attribute partly to the soul. It's really, really hard for me to call someone a feminist when they treat women the way Spike treated Harmony.

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Haven't watched the X-Files. I could maybe see Wash, though.

(Also, I find it amusing that at least half of the guys mentioned on this post are from Whedon shows.)

[next_to_normal]

Hahaha, I JUST started rewatching SFU last night. I'll have to look out for that. :)

[next_to_normal]

Who is Rickie Vasquez?

(Which adds the question of whether we're looking for a character who is, himself, feminist, or one whose position within the story forwards feminist goals.

Well, the original commenter (the one who called Angel a feminist icon) seemed to be suggesting that the character himself was a feminist. And she was upset because the comics made Angel an abusive boyfriend type, which ruined his feminist image. So I guess it's the former, although I'm open to any discussion, really.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

About Mal and Inara:

I don't really see it the same way. Firefly was criticised a lot because of the companion concept being seen as glorifying prostitution. I think the show was to some extent a discussion of the topic with two viewpoints that are found within feminist movements. One that says that prostitution could work without inherently being bad for women under the right circumstances. And the other one that says prostitution will always degrade women.

In my mind Inara promotes the first and Mal the second stance but both are feminist stances. Mal confronts Inara about what she does and points out the crude ugly sides, while Inara shows him that she's by no means in a constant state of oppression because of what she does.
Mal never judges her as amoral but he questions wether she is truly free (since that's a question so central to his own life).

They banter a lot, but I never thought he actually disrespected Inara (nor the woman he slept with on brothel planet). I saw those two as having a feminist discurse, not as one trying to opress the other.

And yay about you reading Swordspoint! Please please let me know how you like it. The first one is not exactly feminist though, except for a shortstory in the back, where EK addresses "Richard and Alec's inability to deal with the wretched situation women are in, in their society". The second book is all about the women though and elaborates on the topic from all sides.

[jnb71976.livejournal.com]

Lloyd Dobbler! I love you for thinking of him. He actually embodies everything this post is about. *needs a Lloyd icon*

[jnb71976.livejournal.com]

Well, Johnny Castle belongs on every list of awesome ever. I agree with you on all points.

ETA: And thanks for helping me decide on a sunday afternoon movie! :D

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

Who is Rickie Vasquez?

Oh wow. How to describe Rickie Vasquez. He was one of the characters in My So-Called Life and quite possibly the best teenage queer character on television to date, not least of all because he transgressed gender roles without falling into the "sissy" stereotype. He was also very genuinely a good person and very supportive. If I'm to have any complaints, it's that he never did get a boyfriend, but then, it was the 90s, plus, he was fifteen...

A clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-fayt-PsxE), which isn't so much Rickie being feminist as Rickie being so idealistically romantic it's almost painful, but it does show both Wilson Cruz' fine acting and the great report between the characters. (And another one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB4hVi28Iyk), to show that he's not just there to support the girls.)

ETA: This character bio (http://www.mscl.com/characters/rickie_vasquez.html) explains him better than I could.

[next_to_normal]

Ah, My So-Called Life is another one that's languishing in the Netflix queue. :) But hey! I saw Wilson Cruz playing Angel in Rent. That's pretty cool.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

I won't argue that the writers choosing to write a story that involves a man questioning a woman's judgement is not a particularly feminist message to send. However, if a man thinks a woman is wrong about something, it's not necessarily a sign that he's sexist and anti-feminist. He might just think that she's wrong. :-)

I'd say given Giles' role as The Only Watcher Left (at least for the purposes of the show), LMPTM is intentionally meant to be Giles Being Paternalistic which, yes, is sexist. A man can think a woman is wrong about something, but when he goes behind her back to try to take the decision out of her hands? I'm not gonna leap to a gender-blind defense of him.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Yep. I think Giles is interesting. Looking at his role in the Watcher-focused episodes (Helpless, Graduation Day, Checkpoint), I'd say his role in the feminist narrative is that of a member of the oppressive class actively trying to be an ally. This involves missteps, certainly. His drugging of Buffy in Helpless, his disrespect for Buffy's authority in LMPTM, etc. However, I think that points to the difficulty in moving past that lifelong indoctrination he must have received as a Watcher.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

SCHMENDRICK!!!

*must rewatch that movie now*

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Word. In S5 and S6, Spike also appears to have a rather sexist perception of entitlement to Buffy's love. Because he wants it, because he wants her, she should love him. Part of his development is losing this notion (which he does in stages, often with regressions).

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

SAM LOVE. He just overall is someone who really understands systemic discrimination, and is politically on the right side of feminist issues, but is really attached to, say, sexual harassment, or his uncontested ability to talk down to his lady friends (all of them - CJ, Laurie, Ainsley). And from Sam being otherwise a consistent character (and going to law school with one or two just like him) I kind of think that was someone else's lady issues seeping through.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the book, and you can tell it's a book because it's following approximately a thousand different characters and a BUNCH of stuff happens each episode (because there are only to be 8). BUt I have been intrigued by the character of Ellen. From what I've pieced together from her flashbacks as well as her current story, she was a novitiate nun who rescued a knight who'd washed up from a sunken ship and who was the only witness to the assisination to the king's only son and heir. She fell in love with the knight and carried a letter from the knight to the king explaining the assasination. Unfortunately, she trusted the wrong person (we still don't know who because we aren't shown the faces but I would guess it's the current bishop). Rather than take the letter to the king, the unnamed person led to the arrest of the knight, whose tongue was cut-out, and who was burned at the stake. She was then tried as a witch. Ellen, pregnant with the kinght's child, cursed the three men she held responsible for all of this (again, we aren't shown the faces of the men on the jury, but I'm pretty sure who the three are). She cursed each of them individually to a dfferent -- yet horrible -- fate and managed to escape her tribunal. (All of these things are just flashbacks)

The story takes place eighteen years later. And starts out following other characters. One of which is Thom, a mason/architect with a dream of building a cathedral. Thom and his (starving) family of pregnant wife and two kids are searching for work and travelling on a backroad and are attacked by a thief. Thom's daughter is injured and Ellen and her son (now 18) come to his aid. Thom's wife dies in childbirth, and Ellen strikes a deal with Thom for her son to become his apprentice in stonework and architecture. Other things happen (won't go into it all again) but Thom and Ellen have chemistry from the start so it's really only a matter of time before they begin an affair. Then she's recognized as a convicted witch. Thom insists that it's all ridiculous. Of course she's no witch. But then it is revealed that Ellen and Thom are "living in sin". Ellen is almost shockingly confrontational with her accusers, basically embracing the title of witch. She manages to escape, Thom helps her. She insist that Thom stay in town, continuing to build a cathedral and to take care of her son (that he now referrs to as his step-son even though Ellen and Thom have never been married to each other. Actually, Ellen has never been married). Ellen embraces being an 'outlaw', and lives in the forrest. And in the last ep, it was revealed that Thom still slips away to visit her, still loving her despite her outlaw status and being labeled a witch.

It's a multi-pronged story so that's just one of the many storylines involved. It also followed the daughter of the Earl of Bartholomew, Aliena who struggles penniless after her father had been labelled a traitor. And the elite story of the Princess/Empress Maude who has started a war with King Steven because she believes that her son is the rightful King.

But thus far, I've liked Ellen best.

[streussal.livejournal.com]

YES! You've helped me understand why I adore this movie so much.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Rickie Vasquez! OMGYAY! Though his feminism stems from being queer and identifying with the more feminine gender behavior norms, doesn't it?

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Well, paternalistic in the sense of "like a male parent" is obvious, given the title of the episode. It's about Buffy and Spike both cutting their parental ties and moving forward.

I'm not gonna leap to a gender-blind defense of him

I wouldn't expect you to, as long as you don't entirely rule it out either. :-)

If Giles's first action had been to assume Buffy was wrong and go behind he back to undermine her, that would be one thing. But it isn't: he tries logical argument and appeals to her reason multiple times before giving up and coming up with his (murderous) plan.

I don't think it's necessarily obvious that he decides on that course of action because "Buffy's a woman and therefore irrational, and I must take charge because I'm a man" as opposed to "Buffy's under a lot of stress for entirely understandable reasons, given the upcoming apocalypse, but unfortunately it's badly affecting her judgement and she's going to get us all killed."

[streussal.livejournal.com]

Rickie! Yeah, I would say he fits the bill.

Despite the main character of My So-Called Life being a middle-class white girl, I think they dealt with class pretty well too. (And the teenagers ACTED LIKE TEENAGERS!)

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

But sexist intent isn't necessary for sexist action. His action in LMPTM? Sexist. And when determining a character's feminist cred, it's their actions that count.

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

Yeah, pretty much. Though there are plenty of gay characters who are rather awful with women, so I'd say it still count.

It did make me wonder if it is at all possible to be a masculine man and still function as a feminist character. I mean, if you're a man and you realize how gender structures work, could you still hold on to a masculine persona and all the baggage that entails? But then, most men I know well IRL aren't particularly masculine, feminists or not...

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

His action in LMPTM? Sexist.

If we assume that Giles honestly believes that Buffy's trust of Spike is fatally misguided and is going to get lots of innocent Potentials killed - what would be the feminist thing for him to do? (Remembering that he's already tried persuasion, logic and argument, without success.).

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

Yeah, MSCL is one of very few teenage shows that actually feels like it's about teens I could have known, with parents who seemed like real parents and clothes that I could have seen on my classmates.

And yeah, on the class issues. I didn't think of it so much as a kid, but Angela's parents' reactions to her friends is very much affected by class. (Plus, y'know, the overt stuff like the Christmas ep.)

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

The feminist (and decent) thing to do is defer to the woman who he had left a year ago so that she could become independent. It sucks sometimes but subordinates have to follow their general. Giles can't take backsies on the whole Make Buffy Independent thing of S6 just because he doesn't like her decisions.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer would have been a very different show if this idea that "You should always defer to the judgement of the person in authority, even if you think they're dangerously wrong" had been followed through in all cases. Just saying...