next_to_normal | Yeah, I'm going there

I've seen a couple posts now regarding Season 8 and Promethea and how they might be related. I'm not in any way qualified to talk about this, since I've never read Promethea, and my interest in Season 8 vanished long ago. But when has that stopped me from talking? lol

Anyway, the thing that got me thinking was

eilowyn's comparison to Batman. The short version is this:

Season 8 : Promethea :: Batman and Robin : The Dark Knight

And it seemed like the criticism of that comparison is, "Batman and Robin wasn't meant to be serious, so you can't criticize it by saying, 'It's not serious enough.'" And that's where I started thinking (always dangerous, I know).

I think maybe the point isn't to say that Batman and Robin would've been better if it were more serious. I think it's to say that the source material (the story of Batman) is more suited to a serious, gritty tone than a cheesy, tongue-in-cheek one. And that's why The Dark Knight works better as a movie - because the storytelling matches the story.

I get that Batman and Robin wasn't meant to be serious, and that's exactly what's wrong with it. It's taking a serious story and telling it in an incompatible tone. The cheesiness undercuts the inherently tragic nature of Batman, which makes it neither a compelling drama nor a comedic romp. You can't make it better simply by cutting out the jokes. You have to tell a totally different story.

And that's the argument being made about Season 8, I think. It's not the appropriate tone for the source material. The bubblegum art doesn't fit the style of the TV series, the sentient Universe explanation doesn't fit the mythology of the TV series, the over-the-top space fucking doesn't fit the tone of the TV series, etc. And people are citing Promethea as an example of a similar story where they got those things right. The storytelling (art, mythology, tone, etc.) is suited to the story that Alan Moore is trying to tell (I'm assuming - like I said, I haven't actually read it). I think for a lot of people, Season 8's storytelling doesn't match the story of Buffy that we watched for seven years.

I don't think

eilowyn or

angearia are saying "Batman and Robin should be more like The Dark Knight." Batman and Robin was simply the wrong story to tell with that material. Season 8 is the wrong story to tell with this material. The take away I get isn't, "Season 8 should be more like Promethea!" but rather, "Season 8 should be more like Buffy... and a good way to do that is to examine how a really good comic with some notable similarities (Promethea) synthesizes the elements of its own story, and apply those techniques to the Buffyverse."

Redundant Disclaimer is Redundant: All art is subjective. That means that other people might think Season 8 is totally cut from the same cloth as the TV series. That doesn't mean the people who see a problem are wrong. It suggests that they latched onto different elements of the show, which may or may not have been carried over to the comics.

Now, y'all go ahead and argue. :) Except I don't really have enough knowledge to go deeper than that, and I'll be at class most of tonight anyway, so the arguing thing isn't likely to go anywhere, lol.

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Right, but isn't that largely covered by "tone, timing and context"? When you say again "being funny", that's not a quantifiable state. There's an innate understanding of how to undercut or overemphasize or satirize--and it's about knowing where to push, how much, and when. I think it is an artform, but in all art there's technique that we can define.

I believe my response to the initial argument that B&R shouldn't be criticized because it's not trying to be serious was my going "um, I don't even know how to respond to that because B&R is awful for so many more reasons than it not being serious, including the actors and the awfulness of AWFUL" or something. Actually, I think the comparison has been a bit lost here.

To refocus, B&R fubars the balance of tone. And just as the actors suck it, so does Jeanty's art in Twilight in convincing emotion. As does the writing which fubars the tone. Where as when the writing is strong enough (like Whedon, Goddard, Vaughan or Espenson on a good day) that the bothersome tone of the art doesn't impeded feeling the characters (when Jeanty's on a good day)--but when both fail, when both ring a bit hollow, then the house of cards falls.

B&R and Twilight are both examples of stories that try and pretty much fail abysmally. And I think it all comes back to tone and failing to understand how to make the source material funny and when to make the source material serious. In understanding the balance, and producing the balance relies on good execution.

Anyways, since we're on the subject of humor, I was thinking about how BtVS is mostly wordplay humor and character humor and poking fun at itself. Like: "Out. For. A. Walk... Bitch." is character humor for Spike because it's undercut by him hopelessly stalking her, then he goes on to insult her hair--it's totally driven by his character and how he's putting on a show. Or "I'm a bloodsucking fiend, just look at my outfit!" is funny for the line itself, but it's even more funny because it's Willow saying it and Willow puts so much stock in what she's wearing and how others perceive her. She thinks wearing the leather is enough, by God, and all those vampires should, too.

Or Xander and Harmony's slapfight which is humor on two levels--first that it's Xander and Harmony.. SLAPFIGHTING. Because yes, that is how Harmony would fight, and why yes, that is how Xander would get drawn into a fight with Harmony because inside he still has his petty little Boyness. And the epic music and slow motion take it even further, that this is the most epic fight of epicness ever in a show that has actual epic fight scenes. So it's poking fun at itself by taking something too seriously that isn't serious at all. And it's brilliant. (Well, I imagine some people wouldn't find it funny. Like

stormwreath who doesn't like OTT humor. But he's strange and British and also didn't like the rocket launcher scene in Him ~~and I hope you aren't about to say you didn't like it either otherwise I might have to rethink my stance on you being the funniest person on my flist.~~)

Which I'm gonna bring back around to say that I think the humor pandered to in Twilight isn't really Buffyverse humor. Where the humor derives from the characters acting ridiculously because they have silly, silly egos which then collide with their environment. Xander geeking out over Buffy's superpowers kinda, sorta works, but it goes on too long. And after that point, I can't remember an example of the humor genuinely embracing its origin in characterization. The jokes are just jokes, they're not that funny, they're poorly timed so that the jokes deflate the drama, and they don't tell us anything about the characters. So yeah.

Right, but isn't that largely covered by "tone, timing and context"?

Largely, sure, but I was thinking of it from the perspective of how the movie's made. Those things are largely the job of the actors and director; there has to be a funny script there too. B&R is one of those rare instances where it all comes together; where you have clueless actors (did Alicia Silverstone ever make another movie after this?) in cringe-inducing costumes delivering supremely unfunny lines on a set that looks like a latter-day Michael Jackson video. It's a complete failure, right across the board. It wouldn't have been the same mess if there'd been a decently funny script underneath. ;)

But yeah, with this

B&R is awful for so many more reasons than it not being serious, including the actors and the awfulness of AWFUL

I think we're basically agreed.

Anyways, since we're on the subject of humor, I was thinking about how BtVS is mostly wordplay humor and character humor and poking fun at itself.

Hmmm... I better leave this alone or I'll have to write an entire essay on the use of humour in BtVS. :) But yeah, I agree that that's at the heart of BtVS as comedy, but I think there's also a broader use of humour to play off familiar stories and tropes. Humour is much more than just comedy.

and I hope you aren't about to say you didn't like it either otherwise I might have to rethink my stance on you being the funniest person on my flist.

Funniest. Scene. Ever.

And after that point, I can't remember an example of the humor genuinely embracing its origin in characterization. The jokes are just jokes, they're not that funny, they're poorly timed so that the jokes deflate the drama, and they don't tell us anything about the characters.

Very good point. Though I'm sure I could think of some examples both to support and question that, but damnit, it's HOT here. :)

It's a complete failure, right across the board. It wouldn't have been the same mess if there'd been a decently funny script underneath.

Right. Though it still feels a bit comparable in that the acting/characterization is off for "Twilight", the script isn't funny but has poorly timed jokes that even manage to offend the drama (okay: me). And then you have Jeanty's art that gives it the wack vibe of tone/style. But it's much better when you have a Whedon-penned script behind it--it's not the same mess when you have Whedon or Vaughan or Goddard. When it's Meltzer, it's a HOT mess. :p

I think the message folks took away from the analogy Season 8:Promethea::B&R:The Dark Knight was overly simplistic when you say the only different ic serious and campy. It's more about execution. On the far right, you have campy that fails also in execution so the campy is just bad. On the left you have serious that succeeds in execution so it does incredibly well. To say it's just about serious vs. campy is to miss the necessary final step.

Hmmm... I better leave this alone or I'll have to write an entire essay on the use of humour in BtVS. :)

You know, I was just pondering thinking about this. I think it'd make for a really interesting post. Maybe try to think about the different kinds of humor and how they're well-executed. And think of the funniest moments in the series. I think we talk so much about the drama of the show, and we talk so much about the screw-ups, but mostly when it's funny we just laugh and go OMG HILARIOUS (okay: me) and that's all. It'd be nifty to have some analysis of the humor. With our powers combined...

Funniest. Scene. Ever.

♥

Very good point. Though I'm sure I could think of some examples both to support and question that, but damnit, it's HOT here. :)

Ice cube?

Yeah, I'm going there

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